Is a Zero Carb Diet Sustainable?
I have made a few blog posts concerning the practices on a Zero Carb forum, but I have largely refrained from voicing my opinion about the diet as such. However, some recent posts in a thread on Active Lowcarber (ALC) make it obvious that ZC does not work for everyone, despite what the ZC guru claims.
There were people that reported that they gave ZC a fair try. One person for a full 9 months, far exceeding the 6 months suggested by Charles as a period where the body is still adjusting and that progress might not start to show up until after this time.
So what results did this person have? Weight gain and feeling sick all the time. She reportedly followed a pure ZC diet as prescribed by ZIOH. Meat and water. No supplements.
I give her credit for trying it for so long. But, it is easy to do if you get caught up in the dogma on ZIOH and become convinced that their pure version of ZC is the perfect way to eat. When forum leaders and other members tell you to just be patient. To just give it time.
This is where I think a cult-like forum like ZIOH becomes dangerous. When you ignore your body’s reaction and trust what a self-proclaimed internet guru tells you.
How do you know that ZC is a safe diet? Long term?
To me, uneducated as I am in nutrition, I just can not wrap my mind around that eating supermarket ground beef only would have any similarity to a traditional diet of Inuits or Masai. Inuits may have eaten largely meat but a caribou is not the same as a modern cow. Also, the Inuits did eat fish, organ meat and berries. Perhaps not all the time, but when available, they did include it into their diet.
If it wasn’t necessary, why would an Inuit go through the trouble of finding and collecting cranberries when it seems so much easier (and more filling) to just grab a slab of seal meat?
These types of arguments are always met with quotes from Stefansson. He points towards one group of Inuits that he claims ate only caribou for a long period of time. However, Stefansson was not a nutritionist. There was also nobody that could question his statements as nobody was with him at the time. Why would I trust my health and life to what this one person said? Which has not been verified and which is contradictory to other sources dealing with the Inuit diet at that time?
Then we have the Bellevue experiment. Two men eating “meat” for a full year. However, note that “meat” for Stefansson included fish. And organ meat. Eggs. Not the same as a diet of ground beef only.
Then of course, we have that ZIOH guru. Charles holds himself up as proof.
He claims that he lost all his weight following a ZC diet, and that after two years of ZC he is perfectly healthy. At least the first claim is incorrect. Charles lost the majority of his weight on Atkins. Only the last pounds were taken off by ZC.
The second claim is not verified. From what I have read, Charles has had no blood work done for years. At least, I haven’t seen him mentioning it.
I also have another problem with Charles offering himself up as proof. Yes, unlike Kimmer of Kimkins he shows himself in person and can correctly claim that he is slim. However, there is nobody that can know what he eats on a daily basis. Why would I believe him when he says he eats just meat and water? I only have his word for it and, to me, what you say on the internet doesn’t carry a lot of weight. He could be eating Twinkies on a daily basis. How would I know?
He has proved to be a liar about his weight loss, so what else is he lying about?
The other forum leader, Suzanne, now claims to have been ZC for 6-7 years. That contradicts her posts on LCF where she as late as June 2008 posted about eating vegetables every day plus nuts and berries several times per week. Both can not be true. She might have been very low carb but plant matter is not an accepted food on ZC.
She can also not claim to be perfectly healthy as she is going through a number of health problems recently. Hair loss being one of them.
For you that want to try a ZC diet without being drawn into a cult-like forum like ZIOH, there is a very active challenge on ALC. Many of the posters are former ZIOH members. Some of them are still members and post on both sites.
The ALC thread has, in my opinion, a much more healthful approach to ZC. While the majority of posters largely eat meat/fish, there is no requirement to never include any vegetable matter. Or eggs. Or cheese. Individual modifications are not only allowed but encouraged. As is exercise.
Not to mention that an open discussion and questioning is allowed on ALC.
I do hope that all the members at ZIOH find a better place to hang out. That place is not healthy, in my opinion, and that doesn’t only apply to the diet.
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Comments
Thank you for pointing out the conflicting “information” being spread by Suzanne. She is such a nutcase, if it wasn’t so sad it would really be laughable. I could go on and on and on, not only about her, but also about the ZIOH-Cult and how DANGEROUS that place is, not to even mention the actual WOE! I’ve asked numerous times to point me to proper scientific studies done re ZC and…well… you said it: “Stefansson” :rolleyes: Oh,and don’t forget about The Bear, who in my opinion is a total mess right now. I just hope that Mallory girl can escape quite soon because ZC is quite obviously not working for her, yet she stays. That’s how cults operate. You lose your common sense, for example. Please don’t stop exposing that place for what it actually is, i.e. A CULT. I don’t believe anything anyone says on there anymore (well, I do believe the posts about the negative side-effects but these posts often simply get deleted). If you look at the ZC/Carnivore people on ALC, and see what they eat, it is more often than not, NOT as per according to the guru’s prescription/prophesy. Yet, they continue to post on ALC AND ZIOH. It baffles my mind…
Suzanne posted on ZIOH and claims that she did not eat berries or nuts (“I never ate nuts, not ever. I do not even like them. Berries? no, never ate fruit once I started.”) and also said: “She said I posted this on LCF’s, but did not include the post.”
The post (actually several of them) is easily found. This is a direct copy from what she posted on June 1, 2008:
“I hate posting my menu cause it always seems to open me up to attack, but here it goes. Tuna with mayo breakfast and coffee one equal and heavy cream. Lunch is usually chicken breast with butter and some turkey burgers (I make about 5 or 6 and eat them as hungry). Scrabbled eggs in theternoon is I want a snack, depends on the day. Steak for dinner with a small salad with mayo. I will usually have 2 or 3 macadamia nuts and maybe 2 strawberries, but not everyday. I have a very meat heavy diet, my steaks at dinner are very large, as are my chicken breasts. I will often dip in mayo as I eat too.”
As we found out with Kimmer, you can’t erase your history from the internet.
Now she’ll say it makes no difference what she ate in 2008 (like Charles does). I agree – who cares? But don’t lie about it. How can their claims about ZC be believed when they are embellished with lies? It’s so hypocritical to sit back and criticize people who aren’t tough enough to be strictly ZC when they are indulging in just what they themselves ate when they lost their own weight!
She also commented about people who haven’t even met her not liking her. She’s known by the seeds she sows. Hardly goodness and light!
I am THAT Katelyn about whom you blogged earlier. I have stayed away purposely from the drama because I have had enough excitement of that kind, lol. I want to say that I am as ZC as ever, and just because I left ZIOH, I still firmly and even more so believe in the validity of the Zero Carb Way of Life. It is not a diet. I am going to eat this way for the rest of my life. I talk about it in my new journal over at ALC, and it is a major part of my life. I have never felt healthier, had a leaner and stronger body, and I have never had so much energy with NO hunger at all. I am finally free, and I’m eating delicious meat!
I feel great eating raw ground beef, but I will also eat cooked, unseasoned meat as well. I just passed my 10 Month Mark on ZC and I have never eaten off plan and never plan to incorporate vegetables or any carbohydrates into my way of eating in the future. I say, to each his own, but I know that this is the only WOE that has given me the body I love and the peace of mind that I craved.
As for Suzanne, I met her once and she seemed very healthy to me. ZC has cured her bulimia, she can eat to full satisfaction and her pictures show a healthy, lean body for a woman in her late 30s. I think she is a much healthier example than those who cannot keep from “falling off the wagon” and constantly “crave a snack”–the majority of those who climb the carb ladder on message boards.
Kate, you look healthy in your pictures. Lean with muscle tone. Suzanne looks scrawny. Her ribs poke through making her look too skinny. She’s not a good representation of ZC while you are.
Well, thank you, Aaron. I could stand to gain some weight. I don’t think I want to necessarily say that I represent ZC. I just want everyone to know how much this WOE changed my body and my mind for the better. I am very happy at ALC. There are so many intelligent, generous, interesting and best of all UNIQUE members there. Our Carnivore group is very tight but open to new members joining us and we hope that everyone’s experience with ZC/VLC is positive.
I think this blog exposes very important things in the low carb world and I support the mission. I just wanted to clarify how I felt about ZC myself.
Kate you are a very forgiving person. Sometimes I wonder if you are just unbelievably kind or if you just refuse to face the truth? You forgot what Suzanne said about you in THAT thread? You also, according to queen bee Suzanne, told her when you met her that “you are so much skinnier than I am”. So, you made that observation yourself.
Let’s not forget that Suzanne recently dropped 10 lbs almost oovernight, mysteriously of course, leaving her at 100 lbs. At her height doesn’t sound healthy to me at all… And how did those pounds so mysteriously disappear? By eating almost half a cow per day? Yeah right…
Kate I know you love your WOE, you make it clear everywhere, but please I beg you to focus on possibly very negative side-effects long-term. As much as I would like to feel comfy about your one bowl of raw store-bought GB per day, I just can’t. If you want to STAY as healthy as you say you are now, you have to at least include organ meats etc. and eat more. You also said, on ZIOH, you never take supplements but recently, I think this week, you told someone on ALC you take a Mag. supplement everyday. What else are you taking? I hope it’s at least a handful of other stuff. Take good care of yourself.
Here it is: “Yes, I take magnesium supplements daily. Very easy. Why would you want stevia on a supplement?”
http://forum.lowcarber.org/showthread.php?t=406410 post#5
So is ZC meat and water only or is it meat, water and supplements?
I take magnesium and Vitamin D and postassium. I said this on ZIOH, too. The magnesium is for sleeping.
I might eat some organ meat. I love chicken gizzards! But I feel and look my best now, so if it ain’t broke, as they say. Thank you for the concern; I see you mean it.
No, I’m actually not a very kind person, to be blunt. I can be very selfish and I can be an a$$hole. I am very loyal to my friends and family. That said, I just want to focus on the positive, about how ZC saved my life in a way.
Katelyn, you can’t really judge long term health by how you feel and look right now. You could smoke 3 packs of cigarettes a day and still look & feel healthy right now. That wouldn’t automatically mean that your body isn’t deteriorating from within. I’m not attacking your choice, or equating your WOE to smoking. I’m just pointing out that the logic you are using to say it’s healthy could be short-sighted. Keep an open mind about it, OK?
As for Suz, did you see that she called your treatment at ZIOH a witch hunt? Her words, I swear! She must realize that she was a ringleader in that. I hope she apologizes to you one day. (Stop laughing!)
Suzanne has made a 180 degree turn? “Witch hunt”? Indeed she was a ringleader! I wonder if she has now deleted her posts in THAT thread… Kate(lyn?), even if she does apologize she wouldn’t be sincere. She’s bouncing off walls. Disturbing.
I see latest advice for ED sufferers on ZIOH is to do ZC AND(!!) seek professional help. Queen bee is even saying she now wonders if the ED Forum was such a good idea. The exposure seems to work!!
CW is a paralegal who read a couple of lay books and now he considers himself a medical expert. Give me a break! I’m a faithful viewer of Law & Order, but that doesn’t make me an attorney!
If CW were to take an exam in undergrad Physiology or Biochemistry, he would fail miserably. He doesn’t even know the difference between the Krebs cycle and the triglyceride/fatty acid cycle (two things that he pontificates about on a regular basis). Do yourself a favor – if you want to follow a LC diet, there are plenty of real experts out there that can help you.
I have to agree with JND on CW’s “knowledge.” You can see how he reads a particular book and then starts parroting the language from it without really understanding what he is talking about. It was actually funny after he read the articles from the 1950s talking about hypoglycemia, the doctor who wrote them used the term “embarrass” in talking about impedance of the heart. That term is no longer used these days but suddenly Charles started using “embarrass” all over the place. I felt kind of sorry for him, it showed his lack of education and sophistication.
He overwhelms most of the other uneducated people on that board with his lingo. If there does happen to be someone who actually knows what they are talking about and they call CW out on something, he shuts them right up with some kind of heavy handed, threatening remark like, “Ok, you’ve made your point. We’ve discussed this ad nauseum and the subject is now closed.” Then if they try to come back at him, he bans or threatens to ban them.
The other scary thing that happens there is the mob attack. If someone posts some research or opinion that doesn’t agree with THE WAY, the usual suspects pile on to ridicule the person.
“This is where I think a cult-like forum like ZIOH becomes dangerous. When you ignore your body’s reaction and trust what a self-proclaimed internet guru tells you.”
This is the saddest part about the people eating his crap up with a spoon. On one hand he’s telling them to listen to their bodies and eat accordingly and then on the other they are supposed to ignore those same bodies when what they’re hearing doesn’t agree with what HE is saying. How brainwashed must they be to not even realize something that glaring?
Is ZC sustainable? For some sure but now many of them are claiming the reason they want to keep out those who don’t do exactly what CW tells them to do is because they can’t handle hearing about people eating differently. It makes them want to eat other stuff too. That right there tells you that unless they are planning on building a compound somewhere with zero outside world interaction they aren’t going to ever be successful for the rest of their lives. Anytime you have to control someone elses actions in order to control your own you’re never going to sustain/succeed at anything.
“Anytime you have to control someone elses actions in order to control your own you’re never going to sustain/succeed at anything.”
This is an excellent point.
I have a hard time understanding why ZIOH members call me fat just because I don’t agree with their WOE. ZC may be a “way of life” on ZIOH but the fact is that most members join because they want to lose weight. So even if I were overweight, why is that used as a derogatory remark by people that used to have (or still have) a weight problem themselves?
Even Charles brought out the “fat card” in his first comment here on my blog; the post where I called ZIOH cult-like:
“Yes, a cult. And that’s why you all are fat and unhealthy. Just stay over here spewing your nonsense while failing at your diets. When you decide to get serious and lose those pounds and get healthy, come see us.”
Now, that member Peggy is doing the same on ZIOH:
“I read all this negative talk about ZIOH before I joined and I figured people that ARE actually slim, healthy, and on their way to being slim and healthy don’t waste time talking nonsense online so clearly the ZIOH camp is WHERE it’s at.”
And she further suggests:
“I invite you all to come lose the 40lbs I’ve lost”
If I lost 40 pounds, that would put me at 82 lbs. At 5′6″ I don’t think that would be a good idea.
And for the record, I have no idea who MarlaB is apart from her posts on ALC.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but Kimmer and her minions played the fat card a lot, too. It seems to be the nature of the beast.
It’s weird to think that the expectation is that only ‘fat’ people could care about how people are treated.
“When you decide to get serious and lose those pounds and get healthy, come see us.”
Really? Thanks for the invite, but I’m very happy with my weight and health. So if ZIOH is the place to go when one wants to “lose those pounds”, what’s up with Carolina(and a great deal of others too, mind)?
Carolina is a long-standing well respected member of the ZIOH cult and an obeying follower of The Leader’s version of ZC. One small problem. After a year on ZIOH-ZC, she’s not losing those pounds. She started to blog about it very recently, here (look at 1st entry):
http://onesteakatatime.blogspot.com/
Then “someone” forwarded Carolina’s introductory post in her blog to The Leader (OMG Carolina, you got busted!! RUN!). Guess what The Leader had to say regarding Carolina’s lack of weightloss, as expressed in her blog?
“[...]you’ve never had children so you don’t get the assistance of your sex hormones. Think about it. For a women to truly be a woman, she has to have children[..]”
Here: http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2961&page=10 (post #93)
WTF??? So now, because Carolina chooses not to have children, and she’s not losing those pounds, she’s not “truly” a woman and therefore not losing weight?
Just when I start to think things at ZIOH couldn’t possibly get any worse, The Leader hits me with another one of his gems, such as the one above.
Well done Carolina for starting a blog about this. I’m going to hazard a guess that from now on you are not going to be so popular at ZIOH anymore…
Shocked to see Margot taking a cheap shot at Mallory over her departure. They really do eat their young over there.
Post 5504 in Margot’s journal:
“Well what a kick in the pants.
12+ months and not even a thank you or anything of the sort. Just a ‘close my account’ and she walks out.
Oh well, I hope she finds the peace she needs to get healthy, it was great watching you grow up a little.”
““[...]you’ve never had children so you don’t get the assistance of your sex hormones. Think about it. For a women to truly be a woman, she has to have children[..]””
Are you serious? So let me get this straight because I am physically incapable of having a child (the one thing btw that I would gladly weigh 10,000 pound for the rest of my life just to be able to have) I am somehow less of a woman? What an *ss. Sorry for the language but that man – if you can even call him that – has to be one the most sorry excuses for a human being I have ever come across.
“Shocked to see Margot taking a cheap shot at Mallory over her departure.”
I’m not shocked. She’s becoming one of the worst there. And what’s up with the lack of picture updates. She used to update regularly to show progress. A lot of them did. I wonder if they’ve stopped because they’ve all stalled and have no progress to show?
Mallory, if you see this you’ve made a great decision. Find a group of people who will truly support you and not try to force to stop reading, thinking and asking questions. You deserve the same respect you seem to show others.
If that forum must have targets, take aim at the ones who left out of disgust. To take a shot at a member trying to heal herself of a disease that WILL KILL HER is despicable.
The forum erupted over a departing member’s comment about them being a pack of hyenas, but Margot’s post kind of makes the point.
A few of us have known margot for years at several boards under several names(prozac, perhaps most tellingly)and she has always had a high penchant for drama and needing all the attention on herself.
What is odd is she feeds her baby meat in the forms of cookies and muffins. That and she really lost most of her weight with Atkins before she, like CW, later switched to ZC and proclaimed lives to meat and water. Her narcissism and snotty character weren’t unusual for her, even years ago.
“What is odd is she feeds her baby meat in the forms of cookies and muffins.”
I don’t understand how anyone would be willing to take a risk of an all meat diet with their child.
It’s one thing to make the decision to eat ZC for yourself a consenting adult but to risk it with your child when there is simply not enough data is another. Just to be clear I don’t think this makes Margot a bad mom. That’s not my place to judge. For ME I just think it’s a dangerous gamble with a child’s life and one I would personally never make.
Honestly, guys, why focus on looks? If you have legitimate points to make about Zero Carb as a WOL or ZIOH as a forum, do it.
I am into my body. I admit this in my journal and anywhere. I like to be lean and strong. If I had not seen Suz’ example on ZIOH, as well as Charles’ shape and a few others who got lean just eating meat, I would never had done it. Now, I got the mental benefits of never being hungry all the time, only having to eat one delicious meal a day, less food fixation, INCREASED ENERGY, but to be honest, I wanted a flat stomach, and I wanted to STOP losing muscle. ZC has done this for me, and I feel the best in my life. It is hard to understand this unless you try ZC. That said, I do believe you can target ZC to your own individual needs, and that is how I personally fell out with the forum. My way of doing ZC for ME was not accepted there, because I had specific goals that I wanted to meet instead of just letting things happen.
I will not comment on your opinions of certain members. Let me just say I am childfree for life–I never want to be a mother–but if I were to have children, I would certainly raise them ZC, seeing as how healthy it made me. I wasted years as a vegetarian and I am trying to reverse that damage now.
I think you guys do good work in exposing certain negative aspects of online communities, and your defense of me personally is appreciated–please know that. But I get defensive about ZC as a WOE, not ZIOH as a forum, being attacked because ZC saved my life from later probles as a vegetarian, and gave me this body I love so much and this mind freedom that I never had.
I just wanted to say that piece. Have a great day. I’m off to go snow-shoeing, fueled on meat 
.
Katelyn, I think OhYeahBabe has already responded to a similar post made by you:
“Katelyn, you can’t really judge long term health by how you feel and look right now. You could smoke 3 packs of cigarettes a day and still look & feel healthy right now. That wouldn’t automatically mean that your body isn’t deteriorating from within. I’m not attacking your choice, or equating your WOE to smoking. I’m just pointing out that the logic you are using to say it’s healthy could be short-sighted. Keep an open mind about it, OK?”
What do you think would have happened at ZIOH if Jimmy Moore had made the statement that childless women are not “real” women? The banshees would have been on the warpath! But CW makes such a statement and it passes quietly into the night. Curious, isn’t it?
Charles can say that the childless are not women,
but the man who can’t keep his marriage together
as a husband
and his family together
as a father
isn’t much of a man.
If anyone is interested in following Mal’s progress in her path to recovery, please go here:
She needs all the SINCERE support she can get.
“What do you think would have happened at ZIOH if Jimmy Moore had made the statement that childless women are not “real” women? The banshees would have been on the warpath! But CW makes such a statement and it passes quietly into the night. Curious, isn’t it?”
Yup. I guess that’s how cults work/operate?
I didn’t like the childless comment. I don’t think the decision to have / not have children has that great an affect on one’s hormones, specifically the ability to lose/gain weight. Having a hysterectomy certainly does, but not child-bearing.
It is pretty obvious from reading Mallory’s blog post “Afterthoughts” that Mallory was conning all the members at ZIOH. She was using zero carb in order to enable her ED. That is all pretty obvious now from Mallory’s own comments. Something for the members there to be aware of when the next person comes along using zero carb (and really any other dietary approach IMO) to enable their ED.
Margot did not take a cheap shot. She was upset after the support Mallory was given there that basically Mallory left saying f… you to all that had supported her. Hard to not understand that sentiment when you have have tried to be supportive to someone.
No one should take Mallory’s exit personally. Her con game is part of her ED. She admits as much. My hope is that she get some good professional help. She needs it.
Edited by mariasol. I find the discussion here interesting and valuable but I’d like to keep personal attacks out of it.
@Anti_ZIOH_Cult
ROFLMAO!! You are so wrong. Try again. Not even a member there. A lurker but not a member.
I’ve lurked over at ZIOH, and, while some have lost weight, I still find it difficult to understand why severe side effects like cramping are accepted as “ok”. It makes no sense to me, because in any other diet and lifestyle change I’ve made, it never resulted in poor digestion or cramps. It would be unacceptable to me and indicative of an imbalance in the body. Simple human physiology shows that.
The majority of people over there have admitted that ZC gives them strict control they need over their eating, and that a taste of vegetable matter sends them off into a carb-fest or binge. That is not a typical reaction to food. However, rather than fix their metabolic reaction to food, they simply circumvent it, and perhaps make it worse over time.
I really don’t see it as a cure for EDs, because it continues to feed into the “obsessive control” over food. I often see a lot of enabling of one person in particular, who, while they claim to have recovered from bulimia, they have switched to anorexia.
It’s interesting to watch the transformation of ZIOH and see the splinter groups. One person claims the other groups are made of the ZIOH “flunkees”. I would ask, why so angry? They have decided to take a different path based on their need for optimum health for “them”.
I wish personal attacks could be dropped. Attacking lies & inconcsistencies is one thing but personal attacks really cheapen the argument.
Anon3, it isn’t just Mal who used zc as an anorexia tool. It’s one of the features of zc. It makes the food control portion of anorexia easier to manage.
@OhYeahBabe
Couldn’t agree more about leaving out the personal attacks or ad hominem attacks. Personal attacks are the refuge of the intellectually weak IMO. They do nothing to discuss/advance the real issues. If there are any actual real issues here. Not so sure there are any real issues here. Just seems like a bunch of people POd about people they have never met for whatever reason. Hard to understand all the angst. Plenty of better places to apply all that concern that affect far more people than a minority group of 300 in a forum where 1000 people have already dropped out.
@OhYeahBabe
I am going to admit up front that I have absolutely no knowledge of EDs. None. Zip. I don’t know that anorexic tools are unique to zc. Didn’t Mallory mention using low carb as a means to control food portions? Could be wrong about that but I thought she indicated that. I did not go back and check so I could be wrong about that. As someone without an ED it is hard to understand how food can control you life like that. Especially since some anorexics are not even overweight. As a male and reading low carb forums it is really sad how much body dysmophia affects females. At least that is they way it comes across. Have read it does affect some males but not to the extent it affects females. Now there is a real issue IMO where maybe some of this agnst needs to be directed toward and not all this cross forum vitriol.
I was a member of ZIOH over a year ago, and left because of the cult-like tactics of the leader. Charles definitely has issues. I will leave it at that.
While I agree with your views on CW, I think you are wrong about Suzanne and Margot. Suzanne can be blunt and tactless at times, but I truly believe she is a good person, who wants to help people. She also can’t help it if she’s looks too skinny to some. Also, she talks openly about how she lost her weight on Atkins, and then came to ZC after she lost all her weight. I have never seen her to claim she’s been ZC for 6-7 years.
I left before Margot arrived, but I’ve read a lot of her journal. I think you all mis-interpreted her response to Mallory’s leaving. Mallory and Margot are friends. Perhaps she just felt a bit betrayed by Mallory’s abrupt departure?
Let’s give them some slack, OK?
How does a truly selfless person feel “betrayed” over a friend choosing to do what it takes to heal themselves?
Feeling sad over the departure makes sense, but the term “betrayed” implies Mallory failed to live up to an obligation. It’s a very strange response from a “friend.”
I have to comment on this quote from CW, in telling a woman why she wasn’t losing weight:
“[...]you’ve never had children so you don’t get the assistance of your sex hormones. Think about it. For a women to truly be a woman, she has to have children[..]”
This is so ignorant that it’s funny. Pray tell what “sex hormones” suddenly appear in a woman when she gets pregnant? Can he name them? Is he talking about the various estrogens, progesterone, oxytocin, typically thought of as women’s hormones even though they are present in men too (women also have testosterone)? If so, those hormones are present whether a woman gets pregnant or not. They are there before pregnancy and there afterwards. No new hormones magically appear.
Levels of hormones change throughout life, with monthly cycles, pregnancy, nursing, menopause, even with health and nutritional changes. But there are no “sex hormones” possessed by only by women who have given birth.
If I was in Mallory’s shoes, I would have left exactly like she did. No, I would have left unannounced! Why? Because I want to be rude to my supporters on ZIOH? NO!
I think Mallory got such a fright when she realized she wasn’t in control as she thought she was, but her ED was. That is a very scary thought if you are an anorexic trying to recover. I also don’t believe her realizing that was a long drawn-out collection of thought patterns over many months on ZIOH/ZC, she second guessed, yes, but I think it was more of a lightbulb moment and hence her “Afterthought” post. It was what she said it was: an Afterthought. A scary one because she tried so hard for a whole year, and got nowhere. This she realized after another fallout with her parents regarding her WOE.
I don’t believe her intention was to hurt anyone by leaving just like that. I think, at that point of realization and immediate reaction, she just wanted to “escape” as soon as possible. Not from her supporters on ZIOH, but from her ED which was still in control.
An ED is a very powerful and scary thing, and when one thinks one is in recovery (and she did think just that while she was doing ZC), and then get such a fright when finding out you have been fooling YOURSELF (NOT “conning” other people), a flood of scary thoughts goes through your mind in record speed and the last thing on your mind is to thank people. You just want to RUN.
Mallory is a sweet, loving, caring, compassionate person and I don’t believe she wanted to hurt anyone intentionally. If you read everything she has typed on the WWW, you’d see that she hated herself for hurting so many people when in fact she was powerless, her ED was in control. Her ED hurted people/is still hurting people, not Mallory.
If anyone thinks that Mallory just has to/had to “grow up a little bit” then you really do not understand an ED. In fact, I think Mallory is VERY MATURE for a woman considering her age.
As I’ve posted before, if anyone TRULY cared for Mallory and even consider her to be a friend, and still wants to support her (and why not?) and still wants to be her friend, then her blog is there to do just that.
Back to “Is a Zero Carb diet Sustainable?”.
I have just read the thread on ALC forum again. When Marley reported that ZC made her gain weight and that she felt sick all of the time, one of the ZC members came up in defense of ZC (TigerLily). Now I see this very same member has started to include plant matter AND supplements in her WOE herself? It’s all in her journal on ALC.
I just want to clarify that I think Mallory did the right thing, both in leaving and in leaving abruptly. She needed to get out of there and make a clean break.
Just saying there is a lot of room for misinterpretion in the written word. I believe Margot truly cares about Mallory. Perhaps her vision and ability to empathize is clouded by her own success with ZC.
There is a mindset on ZIOH that their version of ZC is a cure-all. And if it doesn’t work for you, YOU must be doing something wrong… I believe that’s where Margot is coming from..
I believe ZC can be a healthful lifestyle, but they have made it a religion–and that’s what’s frightening!
CountryBelle, the 6-7 years claim was made on ALC in the thread with the same title I used for my blog post.
Some may not think that VLC or ZC makes a lot of difference, but I do. I don’t think we need a lot of vegetable matter but I think we need some. Just my opinion.
Mariasol, I actually happen to agree with you about the vegetables. That is part of the reason I left ZIOH. I was not even allowed to mention the possibility of me going back to eating vegetables in my journal.
Unless you’ve been there, you have no idea how controlling and suffocating the atomosphere is–at least if you are a person who needs to be able to intellectually understand WHY Charles’ way is best!!! Unspoken Rule Number One is DO NOT question or correct the leader!
When I said ZC can be healthful, I am looking at ZC as being meat, organs, dairy, eggs, fish, etc. For myself, I would definitely add supplements for insurance, so maybe I don’t really believe in the healthfulness of ZC after all! LOL That is more VLC, maybe? I definitely believe the ZIOH version is lacking…
I personally eat VLC with vegetables, because I enjoy them, and I believe humans are onmnivores, not carnivores.
I don’t believe at all that ZIOH-ZC is healthy in any way, shape or form. Most on there eat only muscle meat from one animal in particular. Most of them eat the same cut over and over. I’ve seen maybe a handful who eats organ meat, but then also only occasionally. Eggs and cheese are merely “tolerated” if you don’t mind staying at the bottom of the cult hierarchy. Supplements are out!
The human being simply cannot survive or even be healthy by eating rib eye or GB only. It makes NO sense. They may be “healthy” now, but we are still awaiting the long term effects.
Having said all of this, I have to wonder how many people on ZIOH actually eat what they say they eat. We’ve already established that The Leader and at least one if his Disciples have lied and that these people are feared, so my guess is some members may not be eating like that, but they just keep quiet about it. I hope I’m right because that would be a positive and a relief! Actually I AM right. If you look at the huge influx of carnivores at ALC, arriving from ZIOH, you can see that they indeed do not eat as per the ZIOH-ZC dogma. As evident on the ZIOH board, most do not eat chicken or fish because it doesn’t keep them full enough for extended (24hrs!) periods of time. Another warning bell if you ask me. To compare the fueling of the human body to the fueling of an auto mobile is absurd, yet, that’s what some of them do.
As for the ZIOH-ZC kids, I hope their pemmican contains a good amount of dehydrated organ meats too, and they get AT LEAST one good multi-vit per day!
Personally I eat VLC vegetables, eggs etc. and I take a number of supplements (too long a list to type up here) because I don’t believe the amount of veggies I eat is enough to sustain good health. If I wasn’t diabetic I would have eaten straight LC.
I can seriously NOT believe this blog entry has gotten this much damned attention. While I welcome and thank any support coming my way let me set one thing straight…
ZC was a Godsend for me at a time when i literally wished otherwise to die. The nutrition i received from ZC allowed to at first to see so clearly. It did not last as things with ED’s work like that. It became a mind game and anti_AC person, you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY to say that i left all in one post because i was scared shitless. after a year living off of meat a sudden change like that pretty much whip lashed what i thought was recovery. it was so frightening. and yes, it sucks right now, the adjustment, but guess what, i’ll live and i will beat this f-ing thing.
As for Margot- I deserved what i got. Margot’s friendship means A LOT TO ME, and until this morning i had not read this blog, or ZIOH so i was a bit out of the loop. It saddens me to no end to know Margot is upset with me but i hope she reads this and understands that i was scared, i realized i had ZERO control over my ED and my recovery and it made it that much more hurtful to know that i had hurt other people. i dont do this trust and emotions thing well AT ALL, and her being upset is heartbreaking, she means a lot to me whether i ever meet her or not. Margot i know loves me, and i love her too! literally i think i would say i love you to her if i ever chatted on the phone with her
and SUZANNE- I OWE MY LIFE TO THIS WOMAN HELLO!!! did y’all miss in my journal where she said GET HELP, SHE SAW AND SHE REALIZED THAT I WAS NOT GETTING ANYWEHRE. she was the ONLY flipping person on that whole site to attack me for staying thin, to attack me for my routine and antics. SHE SAW what i needed. OMG I WOULD LOVE TO JUMP ON HER AND GIVE HER A BIG SMOOCH ON THE CHEEK! she is an amazing straight forward and hard working individual. again, i commend her for beating her bulimia. i have NO idea what that is like and i would imagine it is a f-ing nightmare. she found her golden ticket. YOU ALL best believe she is 23948659364592136454 times healthier RIGHT NOW than she would EVER have been binging and purging. Her life isnt perfect but who the hell’s is. one amazing aspect about her is that she IS who she IS. she accepts her flaw, everyone has them, and she moves on. MY GOD GOOD FOR HER- i wish i could do that. Now damnit stop bashing her, i am very offended by this.
Mallory, I’m sorry you’re having a tough time. I’m sure you have good friends to talk to, and I hope that you have some resources available to you that really know how to help you. You know your ED lies to you, and it may make you think others are lying when they are not, or telling the truth when they are not. That’s a lonely & bewildering place to be!
I agree with you that personal attacks are not acceptable. The more important questions are the validity of the ZC claims, and the psychological harm done to people at that site.
“the psychological harm done to people at that site”
I’m going to hazard a guess and say that most comments posted on this blog are comments from people who were once trapped inside the ZIOH cult. And BECAUSE of the “psychological harm” done to these people, personal attacks happen. Yes, they are not acceptable, but a consequence, which I suppose highlights the fact that ZIOH is not a healthy place.
Agreed, Anti_ZIOH_Cult. Were you a member there? I was a member for several months. I had gone there to learn, but never started zc. I got caught up in the culture there and was so shocked by what it’s like to be surrounded by talk like that. It can really mess with your head. I got really angry about how questions were smothered and real experiences dismissed, like the digging Stargazey was doing regarding ZC, blood sugar, and zc-induced weight gain. At one point Charles insulted me and I left. I don’t even remember what the insult was, but everything in me screamed “Who the hell does he think is is? I am an adult!” I finally said just that and left. I was glad to be out of there and didn’t browse there much until the past month or so when Kari arrived, the ED threads were created, and the Katelyn situation boiled over.
I wonder if it’s possible for people who have been there a long time to objectively start reading threads from the beginning. I bet they can’t really. It’s a shame because I think that’s the only way to really SEE how off that place is. There are a lot of good people there, but that doesn’t make it a good place.
Yes, I was a member and I wish I could tell you here in public what happened to ME. Behind the scenes, via pm’s etc. You would not believe it. You would not even believe who I really am! But I’ll wait for the right moment.
I have so much anger inside of me and was told by a therapist to “let it go”, “move on” etc. I’ve tried that, but my conscience doesn’t allow me to do that. I HAVE A STORY TO TELL. I’m waiting for The Leader to publish his book, and in the meantime I’ll keep track of what’s happening over there by taking screenshots and posting on here. Yes, he’s writing a book, I can point you to the evidence (unless he deletes it, let me take a screenshot quickly). And again, today, he changed his version of ZC because people are gaining weight (again, can point you to the evidence) and now ZIOH-ZC is more like a no-fat-cycling-fat/high-protein/zero-carb diet. Kimkins anyone? Just the other day he said people should eat their fat FIRST during meal times (fat is the fuel, remember), now lean meat is in. It’s not only in, he encourages people who are NOT “losing those pounds” to stuff themselves on lean meat. Hello kidney failure? He even provides “advice” to a lap band/gastric bypass surgery member on how to deal with her digestive issues!
And now what about some of his followers who now live exclusively on high-fat pemmican? And the pemmican kids? Pemmican was and will always be an emergency food!
Honestly, if you don’t read that board everyday you lose track of his version of ZC. Quite a while ago he had “no use” for butter (one of his members had to point this out to him when his story changed, yet again), so some people stopped using butter and started rendering fat. Now he overindulges and apologizes TO butter. It’s not a joke for heaven’s sake! Finish your experiment on yourself, then get a proper scientific study done, and believe you me, if you do this, Charles, that book will NOT be published.
I’m truly sorry for offending Mallory by having a go at Suzanne, but honestly, only if she knew the truth… OK let me stop the Suzanne thing for now.
And yes, there are A LOT of good people on there. Unfortunately they remind me of rats and mice in cages because they are all part of his “experiment”, and he keeps changing the parameters to get the desired outcome – “Dr.” Washington’s Diet Revolution.
He is playing with people’s lives to get to his goal! For example Katelyn (sorry Katelyn, this is not a personal attack, please, you are an innocent victim). Katelyn got hooked on one of his versions of ZC. She now only eats one bowl of raw GB per day! I know she feels great right now, but I don’t want to even think what’s going to happen to this innocent, young person in future. And then he booted her…
The truth WILL come out. It’s just a matter of time.
That’s about what I thought, Anti_ZIOH_Cult. It would be hard to surprise me, but I guess we’ll see when you’re ready.
Best wishes to you.
“There are a lot of good people there, but that doesn’t make it a good place.”
I think this is a great point. With the exception of CW and his chosen ones these are all people just looking to better themselves (whether it’s weight or health in general). BUT that doesn’t change the fact that the many negatives of the place need to be exposed.
“Finish your experiment on yourself, then get a proper scientific study done, and believe you me, if you do this, Charles, that book will NOT be published.”
The only people who would read that book would be his own members and at the rate he’s going he’s not going to have 20 of them left by the time a book would come to fruition.
These people are adults and are capable of coming to their own conclusions about the ZC way of life and Charles. I left there because I wasn’t going to do just meat and water, and also don’t apply the idea that carbs are responsible for every problem in the world. If people are getting caught up in it, so be it. Some members meet in person from time to time, so it’s not like they are blindly following someone they don’t know in person.
“Then of course, we have that ZIOH guru. Charles holds himself up as proof.
He claims that he lost all his weight following a ZC diet, and that after two years of ZC he is perfectly healthy.”
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but does anyone have a link for that statement? I’ve never heard Charles assert such, and recall him saying he was LC for awhile and lost weight that way. The effort of 20 seconds of searching found a reference to his trying low fat during his weight loss attempt. When has he said he went from 211 to 148 on ZC?
As far as Charles lying about what he eats, why? He doesn’t try to be he-mannish, doesn’t live on GB, doesn’t try to eat once a day, doesn’t eat food raw (he says his stomach gets upset if it’s less than medium rare). But for some unknown reason he’s lying about it, eating some other diet that lets a guy in his 40s have a 6-pack, and claiming to be ZC? Any motive or evidence?
As far as Suzanne, I’m quite willing to call people idiots, and some women are in fact well described by “bitch.” Having met her, Suzanne is neither. Her comment about the ED forum not being a good idea wasn’t prompted by messages from here; she was genuinely worried about Mallory, and was concerned that people would use the ED forum in place of individual counseling.
joe
I’m afraid not 20 of them would even be alive at that point 
I went there to get to “optimal health”. I didn’t have any excessive weight to lose. I left with plus a few pounds and minus about 90% of the health I had when I joined. This includes mental health.
Also see Medusa’s latest exposure of the The Cult Leader and his behaviour @ http://www.2medusa.com
I also see on ALC that Katelyn’s now considering adding some organ meats to her one bowl of raw GB per day. So I guess she has now seen the light AFTER she left/got booted off ZIOH. She has also stated above, more than once that she was feeling great on one bowl of raw GB per day. I guess she has now reconsidered that (Well done Katelyn!)
Margot. Shovel. Deep hole. Still digging.
From her journal, yesterday, post 5556:
“I encouraged (Mallory’s) ‘healing’ and applauded every lie she told us. I told her she was beautiful and smart and funny because that is what I thought. I still think that. But I can only wish her the best of luck and hope she gets the help she needs and feel the sting of her departure on my own.
Mal and I were friends, or so I thought. And if her reciprocation of that friendship towards me was also a lie, then why am I the bad guy?… Because I was totally sincere and totally cared about her and everything she told us. This will never change how I feel, but because my eyes have been opened a lot in the last few weeks about ED and how manipulative they make people, I can only wish them well from where I sit.”
Maybe Anon3 can translate. What “lie” did Mallory tell? According to her blog, she realized that ZC wasn’t helping her ED and needed to move along. How is that now being characterized a lie? How is Mallory’s departure from the forum viewed as a personal affront to anybody?
As members continue to leave and subsequently are redefined as not really having been a part of the family, the charge of CULT becomes an apt description of the forum.
When Mallory is “recovered” from her disease, she will look back on this period of self-flagellation and realize these people were not vested in her recovery as much as they were in spinning reality to protect their image and soothe their supersized hurt egos.
When Margot is “recovered” from the forum, she will look back on this period of narcissism and feel shame she moved away from her true character as a decent person. Or she’ll be pissed Suze, of all people, managed to win the Damage Control race.
Joe, I am not saying that Charles is lying about what he is eating, I’m just pointing out that there is no way to verify it. Anybody can claim anything on the internet.
There are far too many examples on diet boards where someone claims to have lost their weight in a certain way and when you look at their posting history this is just not true.
I guess my opinion re Margot wasn’t so wrong afterall. But my comment got deleted/edited. This is not my blog so I accept this. I’m just confused about when is something a personal attack and when is it not? But I’m going to leave it there because I respect Mariasol.
Anon, I’m soooooo happy to see that you have also spotted the “Damage Control”. I was beginning to think I was the only one to spot this and therefore began to think I might be wrong, but to me it was very obvious, initially laughable but eventually scary and disturbing.
I also would like to add that it is my opinion that the entire ED Forum was a very bad idea. It is enabling and triggering and totally inappropriate for a WOE/WOL site when everything about the “plan” is all about restricting and control, to name just a couple. We’ve seen two anorexics leave because of this. However, I’m not sure about Kari. She may still be there under a new identity, but I honestly hope that’s not the case.
Anti_ZIOH_Cult, I never meant for this blog post to be a personal attack. I do not agree with the Leaders over there but it’s a matter of differing opinion and not a personality clash (for me). I don’t know them.
I sensed pain and anger in many of the comments and I approved them. I am very reluctant to reject and edit comments as I think that it’s not up to me to tell people what they have the right to feel. However, I was nicely asked to “clean up” some of comments that could be seen as personal attacks and I did so. Probably not very consistently and not very well, but I tried.
Joe, I found the quote by Charles that I’m referring to. Now, technically he does not say that he lost all his weight on ZC but do you see how this sentence can be read that way?
“I have been ZC for over two years and by reducing and ultimately eliminating carbohydrate sources, I lost 73 pounds and I haven’t had any issues whatsoever related to regaining weight or any fear.”
This is Charles’ blog post in reponse to Mark’s Daily Apple.
Anti_ZIOH_Cult, I agree that the ED forum was a bad idea. But I wonder if this was all part of “The Plan” to force the issue with Katelyn.
Medusa’s blog post contains dozens of example of Charles control issues, but only hit on the issues with journals, and are only posts by Charles. There are dozens of other examples of Charles roughing people up for not conforming to whatever his demand-du-jour happens to be, and other moderators & members following his lead. This domination and control is being used make the truth of the forum be exactly what he says it should be. Anything that doesn’t fit his truth is pruned out or shunned into silence. In the end, the site will be one big ZC lie. A few dozen happy & healthy zero carbers, proving ZC is the way, the truth and the light. No struggles, no symptoms, no variations, no thoughtful evaluation of facts.
There are many disturbing and unsafe things about that ED forum, but the creepiest had to be how people were falling all over each other cheer the writers on. The stories are compelling, but they are not entertainment! The vast majority of responses weren’t posts of support or personal encouragement or concern over how painful the telling of the stories were. It was more like, “I’m here and I have my popcorn, can’t wait till the next expisode!’ Kari became an instant celebrity as she revealed intimate and painful parts of herself. Just the telling of it (assuming it’s all true) had to be exhausting and emotionally de-stabilizing for her, in addition to whatever positives she felt from the experience.
At the same time, Katelyn was pretty much turned into a forum drinking game, with the inner sanctum preying on her every word and high fiving each every time Katelyn opened her mouth.
There is presently a very interesting discussion on the ALC ZC challenge. One of the successful ZCers that lately has been gaining weight on the same diet that previosly gave weight loss. That is the type of open discussion I like to see. Let’s hear from ALL people’s experience; just not the ones it is working well for. It may help someone else that is struggling and not seeing the same results as reported by others.
This is going off topic a bit, but here’s an article explaining how it’s possible to gain weight on a ZC diet:
http://adipo-insights.blogspot.com/2009/09/is-fable-of-unfettered-fat-burning.html
I cannot agree with you more OhYeahBabe! The ED forum should be a SUPPORT forum, and quite frankly, I don’t think anyone at ZIOH has enough knowledge of the various types of EDs to provide proper support to anyone. There are a host of NOT pro-ana/mia support forums where that sort of thing is done, in a professional manner! Why The Leadership thought it necessary or even appropriate to have their own special ED forum I simply cannot comprehend, but I can speculate. Perhaps they did that to provide some sort of sick and disturbing entertainment to the ignorant masses? Or they were looking for “ZIOH-ZC cures EDs” stories for the stupid book? If they had any knowledge of EDs they would have AT THE VERY LEAST put up a warning that the forum could be triggering/enabling and make the forum visible to members only. But I suppose that would spoil the objective which is of course, at least in parts, to get other ED sufferers to flock to ZIOH so they can get “cured” too, I speculate.
I have to go read Kari’s (or “survivor-something”) thread again, but if memory serves me correctly they had put a LOT of pressure on that woman to continue to provide them with their daily dose of entertainment. Sometimes I wonder if she didn’t eventually crack up and left in an emotional mess, if indeed she left like they say she has. Or perhaps she didn’t have a happy, successful ZIOH-ZC end to her story? Perhaps she realized what Mal has realized (i.e. ZC enabled her ED) and left because of that? I would LOVE to know what REALLY happened there. Kari if you are still over at ZIOH, PLEASE GET OUT!!
Carolina’s thread is another good example IMO although she seems to be stronger than Kari was. And to be honest, she STILL has a dysfunctional relationship with food. She is the pemmican queen and her life in its entireness consists of shopping, preparing and eating meat “on sale” (she said so herself in her journal yesterday or today). So how did ZC “cure” this dysfunctional relationship with food? It’s still there!!
I don’t really know what to think of the Katelyn spectacle. More entertainment perhaps? Why didn’t The Leader just ban her if they felt so strongly about getting rid of her? Not entertaining enough, perhaps?
Off to look at JDN’s link because I arrived there at goal and left with a few extra pounds grrr…
“This is going off topic a bit, but here’s an article explaining how it’s possible to gain weight on a ZC diet:
http://adipo-insights.blogspot.com/2009/09/is-fable-of-unfettered-fat-burning.html”
Excellent link!! Thanks JDN! Are you a member of ALC? If so, could you perhaps post this link in the ZC thread over there?
Anti_ZIOH_Cult, can you give us some examples of support sites that are not pro-ana/mia? I’d be happy to post links to them on my blog. I don’t have much reach on my blog, but it couldn’t hurt. I could link to your blog, too, if you have one.
JDN, great link. I’d already read that piece, as well as some good ones at Stargazey’s blog. One thing that concerns me about the ZC site is that the natural next step for people who start gaining would be to cut back on protein and/or fat. They’ve already eliminated carbohydrates and ‘extra’ fats. Some are only eating one meal a day. Dropping intake farther seems like a huge metabolic disaster in the making, with symptoms that may take quite a while to appear.
“Excellent link!! Thanks JDN! Are you a member of ALC? If so, could you perhaps post this link in the ZC thread over there?”
Well, technically I’m a member, meaning that I registered a name there several years ago, but I’ve never posted a single thing. So I’m not really comfortable doing a “hit & run” posting on a controversial topic in a thread that consists of mostly long-time internet friends, if you know what I mean. ;`)
“Yes, I was a member and I wish I could tell you here in public what happened to ME. Behind the scenes, via pm’s etc. You would not believe it. You would not even believe who I really am! But I’ll wait for the right moment.”
This is very intriguing! I can’t wait to hear more. Do you think TPTB at ZIOH know who you are (assuming that any of them is reading this)?
JDN, I am also a long time member on ALC (since 2004!) but I don’t want to barge into the ZC thread either. I respect the mods’ wishes to keep controversy out of the support thread (I don’t mean that the link that you posted is controversial, not at all, just that my screen name is).
OYB, I don’t personally know any ED recovery support sites but I get the impression that We Bite Back is a good one.
OYB, Mariasol beat me to it. That site is the best IMO. There are a few others (a bit pale in comparison) but I would have to get my other laptop out to access my “Favourites” on IE and I’m a bit lazy now sorry 
(Hey, at least I’m honest LOL) You could also ask Medusa for good links. She seems to be well experienced and connected in the ED field and a very kind and sincere person to boot! I don’t have a blog of my own, but thanks for the offer! I do read yours, BTW. Is now a good time to complain? :-p I go there everyday because I enjoy your posts but you don’t seem to blog often
“One thing that concerns me about the ZC site is that the natural next step for people who start gaining would be to cut back on protein and/or fat. They’ve already eliminated carbohydrates and ‘extra’ fats. Some are only eating one meal a day. Dropping intake farther seems like a huge metabolic disaster in the making, with symptoms that may take quite a while to appear.”
Yup, scary thought. I think I’ve said in another post on here that The Leader at ZIOH suggests going the lean meat route AND to eat lots of it. This sounds like a one-way ticket to kidney failure IMO. They could always go back to VLC/LC (Atkins ‘72) + supplements which is what I did, but I see some of them say they will never ever eat carbs again. Never say never, I say.
“Do you think TPTB at ZIOH know who you are (assuming that any of them is reading this)?”
I bet my bottom dollar they are reading this! If they know who I am it would explain the “Damage Control” going on there
I’ve registered on ALC many moons ago but for the life of me I cannot remember my nic, let alone my password *blush*
Just to add, my suggestion to post the link on the ZC thread at ALC was not to set off a flame war, I thought of it as a positive. But my judgement is seldom perfect so I can see the point why doing such a thing would not be a very good idea.
Oh, I think it’s a great idea to post the link on the ZC thread at ALC. They are discussing weight gain right now so I’m sure they would find it useful. I just thought it wasn’t a good idea for mariasol to post the link.
Has anyone noticed how quiet the ZIOH forums were today? It’s actually quite eerie. Certain prominent individuals did not make an appearance at all! The ED forum has been dead since yesterday. Very few journals were running BUT at least 3 mods have posted in their otherwise neglected journals. Hmmm…
Mariasol, I suggest you sleep with your windows and doors firmly locked tonight. I will most certainly do the same
Time’s running out for ZIOH. And while The Leader “welcomes all the negative publicity” (his words), because he gets MORE members that way… I don’t think that is the case anymore (assuming it ever was). Perhaps they are regrouping to come back with another strategy? IMO the damage is irreversable and they got what they deserved. I’ve read elsewhere about Suzanne’s “depressed spirits” at the moment, and perhaps now is a good time for her to do some reflection and introspection re all the psychological harm she has caused herself, to so many people, of course with the encouragement and support of The Leader, so she might even be a victim herself. I wish her well though. It’s never too late to apologize and change your behavior by being kind, compassionate, honest, humble, empathetic and sincere. If she’s like this in real life, as many have claimed, why have a different online persona?
As for The Leader, not sure, but I won’t underestimate what that man is capable of doing. He is at the root of all of this, and I would even go so far as to say everyone on there are victims of The Leader’s Cult.
I’m going to quote The Leader’s favourite quote: “Speech is free, but not without consequence”. Time for him to apply this to himself.
I’d guess they’re doing damage control in hidden threads. Otherwise, people would have acknowledged their absence.
my goodness will you just let these people live and let be…what is the big deal to y’all anyways? they all eat enough to stay healthy. i dont reccommend an underweight individual go to zero carb, but really there’s nothing wrong when many MANY people there are maintaining good health eating the way they do.
“Has anyone noticed how quiet the ZIOH forums were today?”
I think they’ve just gone into the members only area’s to do most of their sharing now. Margot made a comment recently that she was posting some pictures that only members could view. And yesterday Carolina shared something that others referenced but it wasn’t in her journal or on her blog.
Just one more example of how cult like that place is “Us against the world so shut ourselves inside/them out” mind games.
I used to think CW and his chosen few were just people who were clearly not popular in high school/college and were acting that out now that they have a little ‘power’ and popularity within a group but every day their need to control people the way they do just looks like something so much worse.
Mallory I think you are oversimplifying things a bit and am making a lot of assumptions.
You say in your own blog “Fuck what others think and do your own thing”. You have to now work with this and focus on your recovery. You are going through a difficult time and by coming here you are not doing yourself any favors.
And I say the above with love and compassion.
Wishing you a speedy recovery.
I think the jury is still out on how healthy a muscle meat and water only diet is – this being the diet generally espoused by that place. Traditional crnivores all ate organs and the widest variety of foods they could. None of these modern zc people have been eating this way for a lifetime. Furthermore, many are still overweight and/or suffer health problems and just pretend that it’s okay. How’s that workin’ for ya? I remember when Margot stalled out in the summer at 134.8 lb. I remember how she was going to post a bikini pic for Christmas when she got into the 120s. Now she is at goal according to her ALC stats? That’s fine, I wish her well. (She comes to mind as she and I are the same age, same height, about the same weight but I am 2 dress sizes smaller last I checked, which means I am much leaner than she is.)
But it would be nice to see a bit more in the way of honesty. I know people cheating and hiding it at that place. The whole structure of that forum has become unhealthy over the last several months. The all or nothing approach encourages dishonest reports in order to fit in. Might it be encouraging disordered thinking? Here is a link to an article on functional v. dysfunctional food attitudes which might be helpful to some of you reading this.
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/lunch-att/lunch-attitudes-1a.shtml
Anti_ZIOH_Cult, no problem on the typo, they happen all the time. And do I know you, oh mysterious one? LOL, at first I thought you were Kari (whom I have never had any exchange with) trying to look as if you were not Kari. And now I just don’t know. Inquiring minds want to know!
“http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/lunch-att/lunch-attitudes-1a.shtml”
I enjoyed this link so much and it is so appropriate! In actual fact, I think A LOT of people over at ZIOH need to start their “Orthorexia” threads in the ED forum so that healing/recovery can begin
Great link. One problem. Does not address those who are pre-diabetic, diabetic, have Celiac disease, IBS, etc. So be careful to not make assumptions about why some people follow a restricted diet. You might be as wrong as you were wrong assuming I was Suzanne before. Still ROFLMAO about that one.
For what it’s worth, the biochemistry outlined in this reference is accurate.
http://adipo-insights.blogspot.com/2009/09/is-fable-of-unfettered-fat-burning.html
Contrary to the beliefs of CW and followers, the body is able to store fat in the relative absence of insulin. Only type-1 diabetics have a total absence of insulin, and it’s true that they cannot store fat. However, the rest of us have a low baseline level of insulin at all times, and in that situation, Acylation Stimulating Protein is well able to promote fat storage even when our insulin levels remain low.
Fat storage does require glycerol 3-phosphate to form the backbone of the triglyceride molecule. Simply refraining from eating carbs is not sufficient to stop the synthesis of glycerol 3-phosphate. Even in a state of prolonged fasting, the body is able to use its own muscle protein to synthesize glycerol 3-phosphate.
Finally, the body regards glycogen storage as an extremely important function. Glycogen provides a mechanism that stabilizes blood glucose, and that in turn nourishes the tissues in the brain that cannot use ketones as fuel. Again, in prolonged fasting or starvation, the body will break down its own muscles to provide the building blocks to make glucose, and in turn to make glycogen. If the body uses muscle wasting to provide glycogen even in starvation, it is only wishful thinking to imagine that zero carbers do not store glycogen because they do not eat carbs.
For the record, I eat a facultative carnivorous diet. I do not believe that people who eat such a plan are doomed to eating disorders. Any rational reason for restricting foods is just that: rational. Gluten and dairy intolerance are problems for me personally.
IMO the jury is still out on ASP. This is what Lyle McDonald uses to advance his argument that fat can make you fat. See this discussion of ASP: http://sparkofreason.blogspot.com/2008/06/swift-kick-in-asp.html for a reasoned
Also, these discussions fail to take into account the fact that outright hyperinsulinemia that never gets down to acceptable levels can be the cause of fat storage.
Many other possible causes may be the explanation. I reserve judgement on why some people can gain weight on ZC while others cannot.
“Great link. One problem. Does not address those who are pre-diabetic, diabetic, have Celiac disease, IBS, etc. So be careful to not make assumptions about why some people follow a restricted diet. You might be as wrong as you were wrong assuming I was Suzanne before. Still ROFLMAO about that one.”
Er… perhaps you should read that link again because it is clear you did not fully comprehend. And did you click on the link INSIDE of that link? Doesn’t seem like it. I’ll give you a hint… “superior”…
I’m diabetic and restrict carb intake because of this, and also because I think most carbs are detrimental to my overall health. However, I do not think myself to be SUPERIOR because everyone around me doesn’t eat like I do. I also eat to live and not live to eat. But I’m giving you too many hints now. Sooo, happy re-reading AND comprehending this time around
“For the record, I eat a facultative carnivorous diet. I do not believe that people who eat such a plan are doomed to eating disorders. Any rational reason for restricting foods is just that: rational. Gluten and dairy intolerance are problems for me personally.”
I agree. But then you also don’t think yourself to be superior because everyone around you doesn’t eat like you do, which is why I think your approach is healthy and completely unrelated to an eating disorder.
Also, these discussions fail to take into account the fact that outright hyperinsulinemia that never gets down to acceptable levels can be the cause of fat storage.
Actually, the fact that hyperinsulinemia causes fat storage is pretty much taken as a given in these discussions. What we are talking about is whether fat can be stored in people who have low blood insulin because they eat no carbohydrates. Many people who have tried zero carb have reported that they have gained weight on the program, not lost it. Either they are lying about their adherence to zero carb, or there is another explanation. ASP suggests a mechanism whereby eating fat (in the total absence of carbohydrate) can make you fat.
Let me help Anon3. There are two classifications for lunch (meal) attitudes. The one is Functional and the other one is, you guessed it, Dysfunctional.
The only attitude for the Functional classification is lunch (meal) MINDFULNESS. Which is what Satya and I are doing. Don’t know what you eat/not eat and how you feel about it.
The are three attitudes for the Dysfunctional classification. They are lunch (meal) OBSESSION, IDENTIFICATION, RIGHTEOUSNESS. Can you see how the last three are not Functional attitudes? Read more on the RIGHTEOUSNESS and only then will you understand my post re Orthorexia (don’t forget to click on that link inside!). Assuming of course, you read with an open mind, objectively, and can therefore understand the connection that was made.
Thanks, Anti_ZIOH_Cult!
I’m wondering–should ZIOH stand for Zeroing in on Hilarity?
CW’s approach seems to be the Looney Tunes version of biochemistry. His zero carb beliefs are not affected by experimental evidence or by accurate reading of the books and articles he cites. Sort of like the cartoon characters who race off the cliff but don’t fall, until they notice that they have no firm ground under their feet any more.
@Satya
Just like Anti_ZIOH_Cult’s assumption that I am Suzanne, I am ROFLMAO based on your wrong assumption as to who I am. I had said previously I am not a member of ZIOH but a lurker. Assumptions make an ASS out of you and me. Stop assuming.
@Stargazey
ASP is one possible mechanism although Spark of Reason IMO makes a good case for why ASP may not be the mechanism. If it was the mechanism would not every over eater of a zero carb diet can weight? You cannot IMO have a basic physiological mechanism that explains one case and not another. Barry Groves suggests that those that overeat fat excrete the fat and so do not gain weight. Perhaps this mechanism is broken in those who gain weight. The jury is still out IMO.
If it was the mechanism would not every over eater of a zero carb diet can weight?
No. Not every overeater of carbs gains weight. Does that negate the hypothesis that excess carbs cause excess insulin release causes fat storage? The human body is a complex thing. Because people are not clones of one another, they may well react differently in different situations.
Barry Groves suggests that those that overeat fat excrete the fat and so do not gain weight.
How do they excrete it? In the stool? The presence of excess fat in feces is called steatorrhea. It is not a pleasant condition, and if it occurred in zero carbers, very few would continue with the diet.
Stargazey, thanks for your input here. You have the ability of addressing complex matters in a way that even I can understand.
I had to LOL @ the steatorrhea comment. One of the most common complaints by newbies is having the runs; for months on end. They are told that they just have to wait it out while the body repairs the damage done to it by years of eating carbs. Or something along those lines.
“I’m wondering–should ZIOH stand for Zeroing in on Hilarity?”
That’s another good one! OhYeahBabe calls it Zeroing in on Hell! LOL!
Anon3, I noticed you never got back to me regarding the classifications of meal attitudes. I take that as a confirmation that you now fully comprehend that article. Good stuff! It seems it also takes very little to entertain you for days on end. You’ve been rolling on the floor laughing for days now. You are an easy customer
“The human body is a complex thing”.
Precisely my point. Which is why I don’t buy into the ASP theory although it is a possible mechanism. It could be many things which are far outside my scope of knowledge. Could be genetic differences, damaged cell mechanisms, etc. If the science of weight gain/weight loss was well understood it would be easy for everyone to become slim. Half the pharmaceutical industry is still looking for that magic pill.
Barry Grove’s explanation was for those who take in more calories than they expand and why they don’t gain weight. They excrete unnecessary calories as fat. A few on the Magic Bus forum have purposely ingested calories (zero carb diet) for up to a month consuming excess food like heavy cream, etc. and have reported no weight gain. No reports that I know of of steatorrhea during these experiments.
RE: Barry Groves. What are his credentials exactly? I’ve seen him quoted from time to time, but a lot of the stuff he says is “off”. CW often says that Barry Groves states the fat burns “clean” because it produces only C02 and water which are easily excreted, but carbs burn dirty because they produces lactic acid. So it seems like he sort of understands physiology but not totally.
From the Barry Groves link, “With a doctorate in nutritional science from the American distance learning university, Trinity College & University…”
Uh-huh.
“Just like Anti_ZIOH_Cult’s assumption that I am Suzanne, I am ROFLMAO based on your wrong assumption as to who I am. I had said previously I am not a member of ZIOH but a lurker. Assumptions make an ASS out of you and me. Stop assuming.”
Anon3, I asked a question. Stop commanding me.
“Anti_ZIOH_Cult, no problem on the typo, they happen all the time. And do I know you, oh mysterious one? LOL, at first I thought you were Kari (whom I have never had any exchange with) trying to look as if you were not Kari. And now I just don’t know. Inquiring minds want to know!”
Yes you know me. Or else I wouldn’t have been so happy to see you here I wish I was Kari because that would mean she left ZIOH for real!
“..dissertation on the Politics of the Fluoridation of Public Water Supplies…”
…and 60 000 words on the topic. They probably got so bored reading it, they just gave the qualification anyway. Really, he had nothing more interesting and more important to say? “Fluoridation” was THE one that stood out for him?
Quote: I also see on ALC that Katelyn’s now considering adding some organ meats to her one bowl of raw GB per day. So I guess she has now seen the light AFTER she left/got booted off ZIOH. She has also stated above, more than once that she was feeling great on one bowl of raw GB per day. I guess she has now reconsidered that (Well done Katelyn!)
I haven’t “reconsidered” how great I feel. Organ meats are zero carb and have wonderful nutritional qualities. If I decide to eat pork or lamb, I’m not leaving ZC.
To answer the original question: Is a Zero Carb Diet Sustainable? My anwer: Hell yeah, not only sustainable, but for me, energizing, delicious and simple .
I support this blog in reaching out to ex-ZIOH members. I also like exposing fake diets like Kimkims. Please understand, though, that while I don’t belong to ZIOH and support that forum anymore, I DO support ZC as a fantastic, perfectly healthy Way of LIFE and I have no plans to leave ZC.
I just wanted to add that the Kari episode was bizarre and troubling, especially the re-naming of her to SurvivorZC when we all knew it. I had my posts altered and an avatar of myself made without my permission. While I am firmly ZC and am grateful to ZIOH for my finding ZC, I have been very disillusioned with what occurred and am more and more grateful for my friends at ALC for reaching out to me. I feel a weight has been removed from my shoulders in leaving ZIOH behind and I’m so happy to find that my friends on ALC embrace the real Katelyn, the inquisitive, funny, sometimes vain, sometimes chatty, curious and loyal person, not the person I was made out to be on ZIOH, a character that my friends and especially family would not recognize.
LOL Satya, and thanks for letting me the saga continues here.
Anti_ZIOH_Cult, no idea why you attacked me here, I didn’t defend ZC when Marne told us she put on weight, I dug up old threads from another forum to inform her others faced similar problems, not her alone, one member ‘Opticon’ from the other forum said ZC caused her hypothyroidism, so how is that defending ZC?
In any case I have been open and honest about ZC, open about the hair loss, I was open that was cured by Biotin supplements, and then my leg cramps started, I with Satya’s help investigating any missing nutrition that I can use to boost my woe, I am adding calcium and minerals in the form of supplement, broths and ground egg shells, and parsley, why do you find this a big scandal and evidence of what exactly?
I don’t have to follow any woe, and I don’t have to justify my diet to anyone, it’s a free world and I am doing this to pursue health and optimal weight, not to promote an idealism of ZC, if I think ZC is endangering my life, I have no hesitation what so ever to switch my woe.
I sense there is some sharing going on, which shows lack of integrity.
Rome, you can find Suzanne @ ZIOH.
I am the Marnee that gained weight on ZC. Yep that is me. I left ZIOH months ago because of the increasingly pervasive irrational-attitude that ZC cures all. It was all so blind faith and, yes, cultish. Plus, I generally find Charles’s personality annoying. He is a pseudo-intellectual.
I take the approach like Tiger Lily describes above. I understand that a lifetime of SAD can do more damage than can be healed by eliminating carbs. So it is imperative to be willing to explore other nutritional options and, yes, even conventional medical treatment.
At the end of Kari’s ED thread, a mod posted that she had left for “personal reasons”. Yet, I don’t see “unregistered” below her new identity.
Also, if anyone could point me to Kari’s journal I would be grateful. I have searched and searched but couldn’t find her journal. Very recently a mod @ ZIOH stated that they do not delete journals when people leave (I think it was in Mallory’s journal, could be wrong). That is clear, because there are many dead (closed) journals on ZIOH. Yet, Kari’s journal went poof, or so it appears, unless she’s been given yet another identity. I do remember that she did have a journal because I saw pemmican making pictures posted by her. Unless it was in someone else’s journal, which I highly doubt.
I believe Kari’s journal is gone despite what the forum rules are supposed to be. It comes up in google cache but the links go to “The specified thread does not exist.”
Kari’s journal is indeed gone. I think you might be overinterpreting the rules. It’s policy to not delete journals when people leave–which is a good thing, as it keeps a record of failures and frustrations intact. A record of only success would be misleading.
However, if someone leaves and makes an explicit request to have the journal removed, that might be honored. In Kari’s case, she had photos of her home in her journal. Given the feelings towards her I could understand if she’d prefer that to not be public.
Satya, Katelyn: glad to run into you guys again! I was banned (for reasons I can’t quite discern) from ALC, so haven’t been there in awhile. I’m going to try organ meat (mixed in ground beef) for the first time tomorrow.
Interesting. Suzanne has deleted her journal and started a new one. And she’s no longer a mod. Hmmm…
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=3031&page=1
“Interesting. Suzanne has deleted her journal and started a new one. And she’s no longer a mod. Hmmm…”
Changing the color of the sow’s ear won’t render a fashionable silk purse, but you can’t blame them for trying.
A once promising site crumbles under the weight of “Napoleon Complex Meets Jim Jones” style of management.
Its future doesn’t look bright.
Suzanne commented that people want to do her harm, which puzzles me. I don’t know where that’s coming from but I hope it isn’t true. There are twisted people out there, though. I think it makes sense to share less personal information on the web. It’s really late in the game to consider that, but it was a good move on her part.
Being a moderator may have been a sticky thing if in the long run someone is harmed by advice she has given or if one of the members has a bad psychological reaction to discussions she participated in. I think this was a good move on her part, too. Whether she could be held liable or not, getting sued is a huge hassle.
I would think that Charles may ultimately decide not to have moderators. It sounds like he wasn’t happy that she defied him like that. He may want to close that hole in his control.
Marisol, I have a suggestion.
With all due respect, I think you asked the WRONG question. The question should not be, “Is a Zero Carb Diet Sustainable?” Clearly, the evidence shows it IS for many of us. I am thriving. I have flat, healthy abdominals and no love handles. I have energy at the gym and my lifts–determining strength–are increasing. I have no hunger during the day. My skin is clear and hair is soft. And it is not just me. Plenty of ZCers are losing weight and feeling great, and we have historical evidence that a ZC/VLC diet is sustainable.
What is the RIGHT question for Marisol to ask? Not “Is a Zero Carb Diet Sustainable?” It is. But “Is ZC–As Defined by the Community on ZIOH–Sustainable and Healthy?” Further “Is ZIOH a Good Community for a New and/or Long-term ZCer?” These are questions that need exploration and can invite debate. But you cannot tell me, frankly, that I’m not feeling and looking my best on ZC and I have no plans to incorporate carbs into my way of eating, not after all I’ve achieved.
Katelyn, with all due respect, you are young and just because you might not see any deficiency symptoms after one year doesn’t mean that they are not there. Or that they will not show up. Only time can tell.
I agree that the title may not have been accurate to as what was covered in the blog post. I wanted to point people towards ALC and therefore used the title of the debate thread there.
But still, for most people ZC as defined by CW (whatever the current flavor is) is not sustainable. Who would want to live on pemmican only, or ground beef only, or eat fat until you are nauseous? Yes, I know this is not the ZC flavor of the day, but it has been in the past.
I believe that a diet restricted to just one type of food will lead to deficiency, in time. I know of no peoples in history that survived on something that could be compared to a single food type diet.
Katelyn, ever heard of the saying doing the same thing over and over and over hoping to get different results, and what that actually means? In your case, it’s ironic actually. You are expecting the same results, WITH YOUR WOE. But with your comments on this blog, where you repeatedly state the same thing over and over and over (how wonderful you look, how great you feel etc.) you are expecting to get different results/replies? Do you ever read the replies to what you are stating as a fact? Because the replies don’t differ much, if at all.
Another thing, Katelyn, you are saying you have no plans to incorporate carbs in your WOE. Yet, you are planning to do exactly that. You are planning to incorporate organ meats (good for you!), which are carby meats, into your WOE. 1. This means your statement isn’t true, and 2. Why are you planning to do this? If it ain’t broke why fix it? Are you perhaps second guessing?
You stated the other day you are taking Mag. supplements (and others) for sleep. I thought ZC was supposed to make you sleep better? Is that not the case with you? Or are you perhaps taking these supps because you know you are not getting enough of it (if at all) from your raw GB? Just asking because I am confused.
OhYeahBabe “Suzanne commented that people want to do her harm, which puzzles me.”
Let’s string these together shall we since this comment string is getting kinda long.
Anti_ZIOH_Cult “Thank you for pointing out the conflicting “information” being spread by Suzanne. She is such a nutcase”.
Anti_ZIOH_Cult “I have so much anger inside of me and was told by a therapist to “let it go”, “move on” etc. I’ve tried that, but my conscience doesn’t allow me to do that.”
No need to wonder why Suzanne would think someone might want to her harm IMO.
References to Suzanne by Anti_ZIOH_Cult:
“The other forum leader, Suzanne”
“Thank you for pointing out the conflicting “information” being spread by Suzanne. She is such a nutcase”
“Let’s not forget that Suzanne recently dropped 10 lbs almost oovernight”
References to Suzanne by Anti_ZIOH_Cult:
“The other forum leader, Suzanne”
“Thank you for pointing out the conflicting “information” being spread by Suzanne. She is such a nutcase”
“Let’s not forget that Suzanne recently dropped 10 lbs almost overnight”
“You forgot what Suzanne said about you in THAT thread?”
“You also, according to queen bee Suzanne”
“Suzanne has made a 180 degree turn? “Witch hunt”? Indeed she was a ringleader!”
“Oh look who we’ve got here. An arrival from ZIOH. Welcome Anon3/Suzanne.”
“I’ve read elsewhere about Suzanne’s “depressed spirits” at the moment”
“Rome, you can find Suzanne @ ZIOH”
“OK let me stop the Suzanne thing for now.”
Think someone is obsessed with Suzanne and why Suzanne might think someone might want to harm her?
@ stargazey et al
Please do not bracket Barry Groves with the appalling CW. Barry is a well respected advocate of low carb in the UK, and DOES know what HE is talking about. Whereas CW is not a well respected advocate of anything and spends most of his time talking out of his backside!
I’m sure that Barry would be horrified to have his name used in this way.
Anon3, Charles and ZIOH members have called me a number of things, none of them flattering, the last couple of days on their public forum. I’m not worried that one of them would look me up in real life, or even bother to try to find me. Should I be?
Organ meats are zero carb. I know there are carbs in meat, and more in organ meats. I believe that is all the body requires. ZC is not a cure all. It doesn’t award you the Nobel Prize or make a guy fall in love with you. I have always taken magnesium and have no reason to stop taking it. There are nights I forget and I sleep fine as well. I am interested in incorporating liver because of its health benefits and it is properly ZC.
We already know the long term affects of a SAD diet. I know the effects of eating carbs myself. Why would I want to add that back into my life?
I am not repeating myself because I want a different reply from any of you. I could care less what you think of my WOE; I know that it pleases me physically and mentally. I am not the one dragging out this debate.
Marisol, why not cover the CW version of ZC? I for one don’t think you need to eat only ground beef or pemmican or eat fat until you are stuffed to be ZC? ZC should be targeted to the individual. But asking whether I’ll get deficiencies seems ridiculous, given the Bellevue experiment with Stefansson. I don’t believe comparing my nutrtion to SAD eaters works, just like I have a low BMI compared to SAD eaters but I believe I’m at a much healthier weight than most women my age.
@Mariasol
Don’t know, but statements like ““I have so much anger inside of me and was told by a therapist to “let it go”, “move on” etc. I’ve tried that, but my conscience doesn’t allow me to do that” would give me pause and raise a big red flag given the number or references Anti makes about Suzanne.
If anyone should be worried, it’s Mariasol. CW has already shown that he has a volatile personality when he perceives someone has shown him any form of disrespect or disagreement.
@Mariasol
To expand further. Have Charles and ZIOH made statements like Anti_ZIOH_Cult have done here, “I have so much anger inside of me and was told by a therapist to “let it go”, “move on” etc. ?” To admit that on the internet? Gives one a lot of pause IMO as to what they could possibly do.
LOL Anon3. I’m going to harm poor Suzanne? Get over yourself already, please? If she hasn’t done anything wrong, she need not worry about getting “harmed”. This is ridiculous LOL. Are you suggesting that I’m going to slit her throat? I wonder who the crazy one really is…
Will my exposure harm her? Hell I have no idea. I’m just going to expose the truth. If the truth harms her then it really isn’t my problem at all, don’t you agree?
Also, have you missed my comment re Suzanne might even be a victim herself? Oops, yes, you’ve conveniently missed that. Somehow I’m not surprised, and I’m not amused either.
I have a question for you, Anon3. You keep defending ZIOH and TPTB over there, yet, you are only a “lurker”. Why? If you love them so much why don’t you just join them? Your story is flawed in more ways than one.
“Gives one a lot of pause IMO as to what they could possibly do.”
PML!!! Yes, “they” could possibly expose THE TRUTH! LOL
@Anti_ZIOH_Cult
Just exposing the truth as I see it. You all complain about cyber bullying. Seems quite hypocritical. If your comments are not cyber bullying as well then I am at a loss. You can call it the truth but I see it as cyber bullying.
Think about the statement you made: ““I have so much anger inside of me and was told by a therapist to “let it go”, “move on” etc.” Man that is scary. Very very scary. BIG BIG RED FLAG.
Katelyn, did you read the Bellevue study? I have. I don’t know how you can compare their diet to ground beef.
“Chazkins diet:
http://www.dirtycarnivore.com/images/Chazkins.jpg
Can you say rabbit starvation?”
I’ve got a screen shot of that one too!!! LOL! I love the “Chazkins” label PML!!
Anon3, quit trying to amp up the drama over Suzanne. Complaining about a person on the web is hardly the same as threatening someone. Where was your righteous indignation when Kari and company were directly threatening Katelyn?
“If anyone should be worried, it’s Mariasol. CW has already shown that he has a volatile personality when he perceives someone has shown him any form of disrespect or disagreement.”
I agree, in part. I believe if anyone should be worried, Google returns a large number of people who may all be in greater danger than Mariasol, or even myself for that matter
“Think about the statement you made: ““I have so much anger inside of me and was told by a therapist to “let it go”, “move on” etc.” Man that is scary. Very very scary. BIG BIG RED FLAG.”
OK I’m going to think about this statement I made. And YES, it’s very very scary, especially when you fear THE TRUTH!
I was eating nothing but beef jerky when I was ZC and I almost blacked out. At that point I was told by one of the ZIOH members that I needed more fat. I agreed, upped the fat, and for the first time in days I didn’t feel depressed, lethargic or like I was going to faint.
If Charles is telling people to go without fat, he risks people suffering the same fate as those who blacked out and suffered maladies while following Kimkins.
I pray we don’t need a ZIOH Survivors site.
Katelyn (I see some people call you “Kate”, which do you prefer?)
It took my body a good 25 years or so before it started to show the damage caused by the SAD diet. And I emphasize “started to show”. The damage started happening long before that. Just something for you to think about
@OhYeahBabe
Cannot comment about the Kari situation. Have zero interest nor understanding of EDs so I paid it no mind. Never read anything about it so I have no idea if they directly threatened Kari. Should Katelyn be worried? Mariasol is not worried, should Katelyn be? Suzanne I can understand given the level of obsession by some.
“I pray we don’t need a ZIOH Survivors site.”
We could already create one. I’m a ZIOH Survivor (barely) simply because I left ZIOH and stopped following The Leader’s ever changing “advice” re ZIOH-ZC.
Just today people like Margot, Carolina and I think Susan got told by The Leader to go and read Kelly’s thread to break their stalls. In Kelly’s thread she advises people to stop eating fatty meat. Now remember, The Leader advises them to eat like Kelly does. But, in Kari’s ED thread Dana (I think it was Dana, but it definitely was a mod – too lazy to go look for the actual post now) stated that Kelly is “another one wading in anorexic waters” or something to that extent. That place is ill!!
Anon3, are you a soldier, or even the police? Were you sent to come rescue people? If so, you are not doing a very good job by speculating who should and should not be “rescued”. If you believe people should be rescued you better get yourself over to the ZIOH Cult, in a hurry, I hasten to add.
“Anon3, quit trying to amp up the drama over Suzanne. Complaining about a person on the web is hardly the same as threatening someone. Where was your righteous indignation when Kari and company were directly threatening Katelyn?”
Excellent question! My guess is Anon3 was an active participant!
Nutritional deficiencies can take *years* to develop. For example, vitamin B12 deficiency symptoms may not appear for 10 years after someone starts a vegan diet. But when it finally rears its ugly head, and it usually happens practically overnight, the nervous system damage can be irreversible. Like Anti_ZIOH_Cult said, something to think about…
I’m very confused as to what I’m supposed to take away from:
http://www.dirtycarnivore.com/images/Chazkins.jpg
“My thing is, if you like this lean jerky so much, then just eat it and don’t eat fatty meats in addition to it. Go on a jerky mode for a days tell me what happens. After a few days of that, I imagine you would crave something with a little more fat in it–at which time you should follow your appetite.”
It sounds like someone wants to try a low fat version, and Charles is saying run the experiment if you want, but we’re pretty sure what will happen (you’ll crave fat).
What’s the problem here? (scratches head) Are you really worried that a few days on jerky will cause major health problems?
joe
“Should Katelyn be worried?”
Anon3, are you suffering from some kind of phobia? Why don’t you ask Katelyn if she’s “worried”? And if she is, you can go “rescue” her from .
@Anti_ZIOH_Cult
Ad hominem attacks. The refuge of the intellectually weak. In your case you hung yourself IMO so no ad hominem there regarding yourself.
Joe, see my comment further up. He now advises people who have stalled to eat like that indefinitely! No more fatty meats for them.
Joe, the Bellevue experiment shows problems for Stefansson after 2 days of lean meat! Jerky is extremely lean. This sort of experiment at the advice of a lay person is irresponsible.
“For I had published in 1913, on pages 140-142 of My Life with the Eskimo, an account of how some natives and I became ill when we had to go two or three weeks on lean meat, caribou so skinny that there was no appreciable fat behind the eyes or in the marrow. So when Dr. DuBois suggest that I start the meat period by eating as large quantities as I possibly could of chopped fatless muscle, I predicted trouble. But he countered by citing my own experience where illness had not come until after two or three weeks, and he now proposed lean for only two or three days. So I gave in.
The chief purpose of placing me abruptly on exclusively lean was that there would be a sharp contrast with Andersen who was going to be on a normal meat diet, consisting of such proportions of lean and fat as his own taste determined.
As said, in the Arctic we had become ill during the second or third fatless week. I now became ill on the second fatless day. The time difference between Bellevue and the Arctic was due no doubt mainly to the existence of a little fat, here and there in our northern caribou – we had eaten the tissue from behind the eyes, we had broken the bones for marrow, and in doing everything we could to get fat we had evidently secured more than we realized. At Bellevue the meat, carefully scrutinized, had been as lean as such muscle tissue can be. Then, in the Arctic we had eaten tendons and other indigestible matter, we had chewed the soft ends of bones, getting a deal of bulk that way when we were trying to secure fat. What we ate at Bellevue contained no bulk material, so that my stomach could be compelled to hold a much larger amount of lean.”
Learn from those who have gone before. Jerky for 3 days is stupidity as it is dried rich protein – no bulk material that Stef speaks of! The only reason this advice is being given is because of all the stalls or weight gain on the magical zc diet. The ship is sinking.
Can you post a link? I read a few posts from Chuck saying to eat leaner cuts when you’re not craving more fat, and eat more fat on days you feel you need it. Did he say somewhere to eat literally only low fat? If it’s in the screen shot posted above, I couldn’t read it. It came up too scrunched for me.
Satya, I read (and recalled) the passage you posted. My understanding of rabbit starvation is that it was a real risk for someone without provisions and only had rabbits as a food source. However, the ravenous hunger for something other than lean meat makes it much less of an issue for those of us in a modern setting: we go to the fridge for something with more fat (or carbs), or drive to the store and get such.
Are you seriously worried about someone eating just jerky for a couple of days? I strongly suspect that it’s been done (probably many times). I tried to find evidence of the carnage, and google turned up “Death by Jerky,” but they weren’t being literal.
“After a few days of that, I imagine you would crave something with a little more fat in it–at which time you should follow your appetite.”
Sounds about right.
joe
OYB, see my comment further up. TODAY he advised the stalled members to stop eating fatting meats because it wasn’t necessary and to start eating like another person who has dropped the fatty meats completely. I.E. now the advice is not to do it for a few days only.
Charles’ advice now seems to be disturbingly similar to Kimmer’s advice. Cut cut cut until you reach your desired weight, at which point you may actually be close to death.
I’m shocked that I’m about to defend the Chuckmeister… but I just don’t interpret his comments about reducing fat the same way some of you seem to have done.
Joe, you will defend your guru at whatever cost. There is plenty of evidence to support the notion that low fat high protein diets are extremely dangerous; yes, even in the short term. Therefore, I am now finished with this exchange.
These high protein diets can and do cause sudden death. Anyone remember optifast? Heard of Kimkins? Same premise. Let’s all eat lean protein to lose quickly. Just a few days is all it takes. Any diet should last a lifetime with good results.
http://www.apinchofhealth.com/resources/lowcarb/lean-protein-stefansson.html
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=1124&page=514
Read all the pages from there on forward.
OK, so let’s go on the assumption he says to eat jerky only for a few days.
I only ate jerky for a few days when I almost passed out. It was a feeling I will never forget.
So whether we’re talking only about a few days, a few weeks or a few months, the results were the same for me as for some of the Kimkins folks.
“Where was your righteous indignation when Kari and company were directly threatening Katelyn?”
Exactly.
Suzanne’s deleting her journal is just one more example of her constant need for attention. Long before the Kari incident she was constantly going after Katelyn herself. So it’s OK for her to outright bully people but when others are pointing out that very well documented* fact SHE is now somehow the victim?
*not quite as well documented since she deleted her journal but there’s still plenty of it left in Katelyn’s/the ed threads. Does anyone know if the deleted journals/posts will still show up in the wayback machine?
Here’s someone who went through rabbit starvation, or so she says, in the presence of abundance. Oh, but it was before she joined the ZC religion. Just goes to show you that people can be irrational, and can become ill due to their own behavior. It happens everyday.
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2659&page=183
“Our before and after pictures speak for themselves” ~ CW
Mmmmkay. I went and had a look at the before and after pictures on ZIOH. All of the 1.1 pages – 22 entries to be exact. Of which most are either still “in progress” or not showing much or any improvement at all. The ones that really do show impressive progress I could count on my two hands. OK, maybe one hand. So either CW should say “before and in progress pictures” or he should stop pointing people to non-evidence that ZIOH-ZC is THE way to go to “lose those pounds”. So yes, I agree with CW. ZIOH’s “before and after pictures” most certainly do speak for themselves indeed.
Compare that to the before and after pics on ALC, people who still eat evil carbs and you’d see that he really lacks evidence of how well ZIOH-ZC works for EVERYONE.
As for CW himself, well, he’s a long-distance runner. I don’t see many obese people doing long-distance running. And as some have already pointed out, he lost the majority of his weight on LC (i.e. eating evil carbs), and not ZIOH-ZC. My guess is he started long-distance running after he lost the majority of his excessive weight on LC. And by doing this, ZIOH-ZC allowed him to lose the remaining few pounds. NOT. Long-distance running made him lose those last few pounds.
And another one escapes from the ZIOH cult.
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=1355&page=70
Good for you Sammy!!
“*not quite as well documented since she deleted her journal but there’s still plenty of it left in Katelyn’s/the ed threads. Does anyone know if the deleted journals/posts will still show up in the wayback machine?”
Screen shots are working for me I believe some people realized that TPTB on ZIOH were going to chop-chop-chop to “erase” evidence. Well, I was one of those people. I learned the screen shot technique from Medusa
Wayback doesn’t show up until 6 months later or something like that, I think. Google cache is a good resource. As the threads were public, most of them can be found there.
“I’m shocked that I’m about to defend the Chuckmeister… but I just don’t interpret his comments about reducing fat the same way some of you seem to have done.”
OYB, have you tried to live on jerky only (which is very lean meat) for a few days? I haven’t nor would I try.
The problem I see is: since Charles’ is in a position of power and many take his advice as gospel truth, they might just eat this way, ignoring symptoms of malaise. Toughing it out, so to speak. How many people with eating disorders are in his group? These people are notorious for self-destructing their health through dangerous behaviors. That’s the problem.
Sensible people would eat some fat as needed. But not everyone has common sense about their health.
Understood, Satya. The same could be said for almost all advice given on that site.
I don’t think Charles was directly pushing lean protein only long term. I agree that it could be inferred, and that he shouldn’t even recommend it short term.
Why are you all missing the link I’ve posted? grrr LOL
CW has moved on after giving his “a few days only” advice. He has become worse!
Here it is, again
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=1124&page=514
Read all the pages from there on forward.
Anti_ZIOH_Cult, could you please copy the post, or maybe do a screen capture? I don’t want to give CW the satisfaction of seeing my IP on his site. Thanks!
“Anti_ZIOH_Cult, could you please copy the post, or maybe do a screen capture? I don’t want to give CW the satisfaction of seeing my IP on his site. Thanks!”
No problem. In my case, I LOVE CW seeing my IP on his site LOL! In fact, I always keep a browser window open on ZIOH.
In this case Caitlin, Carolina and Margot are the victims. They have all stalled, according to them, for a long period of time. They are all “stuck”.
Then LarryMagee advises:
“A little less fat might unstick you.”
Then CW advises:
“That’s right. All you “stuck” people, go read Kelly’s journal (Chopin).”
The Kelly jumps in (remember, CW now supports her WOE):
“I just recently discovered (in the last week or so) that I really DON’T need the fattier cuts of meat anymore. That may change any day now, but I’m rather enjoying eating leaner meats. I’ve been eating leaner steaks, chicken thighs/legs, leaner GB, some eggs, and even some chicken breast (with the skin, of course). I’ve left off the butter and stopped adding any extra fat.
Before, I found that I was CRAVING fat, so it was good that I ate it for a while. However, my weight was continuing to go up and up and up. I was gaining about a half pound per day!
So, in the last week, I’ve been eating leaner and I’m finding that I still stay full, still eat twice per day, and still have lots of energy. My body isn’t crying out for ribeyes every day now, which is great! (It’s also cheaper!)
Like I said, it’s only been a week, but I’ve lost about 3 pounds, which is far better than the constant gain I was seeing.
I will also admit that I’ve been more active lately, but I think the weight loss is due to the lowering of fat. *crosses fingers and hopes so*
I really do feel your pain, Carolina and Caitlin! I don’t know if this helps or not, but I thought I’d offer it. I love both of you ladies lots!”
And don’t forget that Dana said in Kari’s ED thread that “Kelly is another one wading in anorexic waters”. Now Kelly is the perfect example of how people should eat.
This sentence stands out for me (it was clear Kelly was trying to give her new WOE a ZIOH-ZC “flavor” to stay in CW’s good books – she succeeded, and more!):
“Before, I found that I was CRAVING fat, so it was good that I ate it for a while”
When I analyze this sentence, I believe she slipped up a little bit. My interpretation of this sentence? She ate fat “for a while” and now she’s no longer eating it.
“I just recently discovered (in the last week or so) that I really DON’T need the fattier cuts of meat anymore. That may change any day now, but I’m rather enjoying eating leaner meats. I’ve been eating leaner steaks, chicken thighs/legs, leaner GB, some eggs, and even some chicken breast (with the skin, of course). I’ve left off the butter and stopped adding any extra fat. ”
Leaner cuts of steak, dark meat chicken, eggs, and chicken breasts with skin are all lower in fat than a ribeye topped with butter but don’t reach the low levels of fat that scream rabbit starvation, IMO.
I’m just trying to keep the lens really clear. If we aren’t accurate in evaluation of the statements made there, we will sound like drama whores instead of people who really do care what happens to people.
Thanks, Anti_ZIOH_Cult!
I think I agree with OhYeahBabe–right now it appears that they are eating plenty of fat, just not as much as before. Unless CW begins to advocate something like an all-jerky diet, it appears that the ZIOH-ers are in no danger of rabbit starvation.
Changing the subject a bit, if you remember, Kimmer at least suggested that her followers take a multivitamin pill every day. If I remember correctly, the current ZIOH position is that their followers take no supplements. That may be fine for people who are young and are good at absorbing the micronutrients in meat. (Or it may not–it’s possible that deficiencies will take over a year to show up.) But as people get older, it becomes harder to absorb vitamins and minerals properly. According to Stefan, excluding infant mortality, during the years 1822 to 1836, about 25% of the Inuit population lived past 60. I’m not suggesting that they died because of vitamin deficiencies, but since most Westerners plan to live past 60, it might not be good to draw too many inferences about the advisability of avoiding supplements with a zero carb diet.
OYB, see my comment above yours and have a look at Kelly’s journal. I believe my lens is really clear. I’ve been worried about Kelly for a long time and if you read her journal you’ll see why.
Also keep in mind that most people on ZIOH are not very truthful when they declare what they eat, for reasons already explored. To lose 3 pounds in just a week when she was gaining 0.5 pounds per day tells me she doesn’t only eat a bit leaner. She eats lean. Again, look at my last comment above yours.
It seems quieter at zioh because there is now a daily chat section of zioh where everyone is posting their daily comings and goings. Journals are now for zc related updates, rather than daily blather.
The daily chat section can only be seen by members who have so many posts and have been there so long.
It may look like there is not much going on, but the forum is very active. They are not doing damage control as someone suggested above however. Its just the day to day usual chatter about meat cuts and lives.
because enquiring minds want to know
I respect all opinions differing from mine. But I stand by my observation. Kelly never ate a lot of a fat. Quite the opposite. At one stage (look at her pictures in her journal) she even looked anorexic and was told by people who really cared to gain weight because she was losing too much weight on ZIOH-ZC (perhaps she wasn’t really doing the ZIOH-ZC at that point, i.e. enough fat, which is why I now question her new/old change in her WOE). Kelly is skinny.
Again, to lose 3 pounds in one week for a skinny person by eating the same VOLUME of food she was eating when she was gaining 0.5 pounds per DAY, tells me she eats lean now, because she was never high on fat intake anyway. Also, she said it herself. She ate fat “for a while”.
“How many people with eating disorders are in his group? These people are notorious for self-destructing their health through dangerous behaviors. That’s the problem.”
Agreed, Satya.
Kelly said:
“Just a word of caution: Prior to ZC, I used to eat lots of VERY lean meat (mostly chicken breasts). Even though I was not eating anything other than meat, I was SICK. I feel that I was sufferring from protien poisoning or “Rabbit Starvation” due to lack of fat.
All of that lean protien was making me have HORRIBLE brain fog, leg cramps, bad skin, restless nights, AND I smelled of straight-up ammonia (Yes, I smelled like cat pee). It was completely gross. I lost a LOT of weight, but looked and felt AWEFUL.
I truly feel that my face looked “gaunt” in some of those old pictures, not necessarily because I didn’t weight enough, but because I was essentially starving myself with super lean meats.”
I have recently switched to less fat than I had been eating for my last 3 ZC months, but I’m still eating PLENTY of fat. I’m just not ADDING fat and I’m trying to pick out slightly leaner cuts of meat. Still some fat on them, though, because I NEVER want to feel like I did when I was eating TOO lean.”
Agreed that we don’t need drama. As such, readers might be interested in reading this study, which puts the upper limit of protein consumption at 40%. Thus for people eating carnivorous, that means 60% fat. Anyone concerned can track their food and adjust accordingly.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/3/682
Inuit are also known for osteoporosis after age 40 (studies can be found). Furthermore, not only are many zcers not supplementing, many are eating only muscle tissue. Very experimental indeed.
Kelly said she is 162 pounds. I would not call that skinny.
You may have very valid concerns about her, but I just think it would be best to leave her alone here. I don’t think Mariasols has set out to out people with EDs, but to challenge the way the ZIOH site is run. Charles and ZIOH and the site’s operation are the issue.
“You may have very valid concerns about her, but I just think it would be best to leave her alone here. I don’t think Mariasols has set out to out people with EDs, but to challenge the way the ZIOH site is run. Charles and ZIOH and the site’s operation are the issue.”
Agreed. Just to set the record straight, I was in no way attacking Kelly. I am CONCERNED about Kelly and I said so in my comments. I don’t think ZIOH is a healthy place for her to be at. Also keep in mind Mariasols blog post with the headline reading “Zero Carb Attracts Anorexics”. I believe that to be true.
It’s pathetic that CW is even pointing to Kelly’s recent weight loss as some endorsement of lowering fat. She recently gained a half a pound a day because she was on a course of HORMONES, trying to get her period back. Those hormones are now leaving her system, not to mention the fact that she just took a course of Clomid to try to force ovulation. Of course her weight is all over the place, it has nothing to do with the miracle of ZC. Which, for the record, did nothing to restore her period as everyone claimed would happen if she just gained enough weight.
Also, Kelly’s cycle stopped quite a while ago, after she stopped birth control pills. It is very common for people who go off the pill to not ovulate for many months, even a couple of years. Yet all the experts at ZIOH told her it was because she was too thin. Then after gaining weight didn’t work for her, they cheered her on in getting artificial hormone treatments. When that didn’t work, they switched to “Oh no, you need to get BIOIDENTICAL hormones.” All these experts on hormones and none of them have linked her roller coaster weight to hormones.
Another thing that stands out is when they have some sort of symptom, like hair loss, they’ll say, “Oh, it’s not ZC, it’s hormones. I’ll go to the doctor and get that fixed the right way.” (meaning supplementation!) Does it not occur to them that the whole basis for ZC is the manipulation of the hormone insulin? And that insulin is considered a master hormone, that influences the production of all other hormones?
It’s like watching babies trying to figure out how to drive a car, could be funny if it weren’t so dangerous.
Satya, I was a bit surprised by your comment. I’m here for similar reasons as OYB: to keep the discussion honest.
As far as viewing Charles as my guru…no. He’s done a great job of getting one stop shopping for a bunch of useful resources for carnivores of all types, and is better than credited at building a community. But, I think organ meat is important, exercise with weights, make bone stock, and take supplements. Not exactly ZIOH-standard views.
Honestly, if I had a health guru it would be you. I enjoyed reading your posts on ZIOH and found them informative; so I was bummed to see you as unregistered. I was happy to run into you on the ZC threads ALC as well. Your posts have heavily influenced me.
I just think you’re wrong about eating solely jerky for two days
joe
Let me just add: I’m reading ZIOH with an insider-info-glass. Not meaning that to be read as I was a member and therefore I know better. Absolutely not. I’m referring to BEHIND-THE-SCENES-insider-info. So I’m interpreting what I read on there while wearing this glass. FOR ME, my glasses’ lenses are clear IN CONTEXT. For others it may appear that my lenses aren’t clear, and hence this post by me.
I’ve also stated in a previous comment ON HERE that perhaps ALL members,even including Suzanne(!) were/are victims of CW’s cult. I’m on no mission to add to the psychological/physical harm that was done to me and so many others and is still being done. Quite the opposite. I’m on a mission TO STOP THAT. So, please, read EVERYTHING I have to say and not only the bits you’d like to disagree with or would like to call-out me out as being a “drama whore”. If anyone chooses to read my comments selectively, maybe it’s better to skip my comments altogether
More on Kelly, it’s clear that no-one has read her entire journal. Some only know her CURRENT weight. That hardly gives a clear picture. I think it is terribly sad that Kelly is clearly scared to post her true menu, IMO. If only she didn’t have this fear (caused by TPTB of course) someone could reach out and help her, which is what I wish and pray for! Just like Mallory had posted pointing at that Suzanne reached out and helped her! Alas, I’m no longer a member so I can only sit on the sidelines and observe, while wearing my special glasses, what CW is doing to his followers. And I’m truly looking for positives too, but fail to see much. He only sinks his members deeper and deeper with some super powerful force. Sad and disturbing.
If Mariosol thinks my comments add no value to what it is she is trying to achieve here, I will leave, no problem with that. Just say the word and I’ll be gone
“Mmmmkay. I went and had a look at the before and after pictures on ZIOH. All of the 1.1 pages – 22 entries to be exact. Of which most are either still “in progress” or not showing much or any improvement at all.”
This is so true. You really can count on 1 hand the number of people there who look like they’ve gotten to a ‘healthy’ weight. I feel so sorry for Carolina. She is at her wits end and while you can see she has gotten smaller in some areas she hasn’t seen the reduction one would expect to see in a YEARS time. Yet they just keep telling her to hang on and keep doing the same thing. How many years is she supposed to keep doing the same thing with no results?
“If Mariosol thinks my comments add no value to what it is she is trying to achieve here, I will leave, no problem with that. Just say the word and I’ll be gone”
Please don’t ask this person to leave. Anyone with an inside view is valuable for this discussion.
I have no intention of asking anybody to leave. Pro or con ZIOH, all opinions are welcome as far as I am concerned.
Marisol – Where is the post over at ZIOH where the members are complaining abohut you and this site?
Lynn, there are a various comments in journals but as I can not search the site, they are not easy to find.
They don’t exactly “complain” about this site, just call me unintelligent, an idiot, a moron, …
Actually, Charles has commented several times that he welcomes the publicity as they get more member registration requests from it.
Between the revisionist history going on there and the “it’s healthy because my uncontrolled study of 1 says so”, you really can’t believe any of the health claims made there. There are a few people who seem to be relatively healthy there, but it could be more luck than the diet. Time will tell. It could take a long time to show the negative impacts of it all. What we do know is that there are a LOT of people on the site who are NOT healthy, and they are forbidden to talk about it except for the anointed few who seem to be abel to do whatever they want. Chronic diahrrhea, chills, hair loss, muscle cramping, frequent illnesses, skin conditions, thyroid issues, cycle irregularities, dizzy spells, mood swings, fatigue, weakness: all problems introduced after people started the diet. The solution is to shut up and give it 6 months. After all, Charles is healthy!
Maybe Charles is cheating, though I can’t imagine why since he can change the rules to suit himself whenever he wants to.
I hope people find safer places to hang out, too. I blogged about that just this morning.