Pure Zero Carb Diet

Thank you, mariasol. I must admit that the site is being filled with content still, so do check back from time to time. Also, there are many people contributing to this project, so my part in the site is just that, a part. We need an informational site on carnivorous diets that is based on tradition and science, not hasty generalizations.

As long as we are quoting Stefansson from NBBA let’s quote this one shall we:

“The second proviso, that you must eat the whole beast,
has, in my experience and observation, still less foundation
than the first proviso, if that be possible. Both Eskimos and northern forest Indians, and whites who live with them,
have a clear mental picture of each animal they butcher,
dividing the carcass then or later so that certain parts go
uniformly to the dog team, the rest to the family. These
-divisions of the carcass vary from one species of animal to
.another but do not vary within the species, unless slightly
by season.

The way in which Eskimos divide, for instance, a caribou
between men and dogs has been described with some detail;
here the fact is emphasized that the organ commonly spoken
of as richest in vitamins, the liver, is nearly always given to the dogs—as are the sweetbreads and, indeed, all things from the body cavity except the heart and kidneys. The kidneys .are usually given to children, somewhat as if they were•candy.

So far as I know the Eskimos of northern Alaska and northwestern Canada, and the forest Indians just to the south of them, the only condition under which they ate nearly or quite the whole caribou was in time of famine. Ceasing to give the dogs the parts which normally are theirs was that stage of a famine which immediately preceded the killing and eating of the dogs themselves.”

With respect to pemmican, IIRC, the Plains Indians used dried lean muscle meat exclusively for the making of pemmican and added in fat so as to achieve a 50/50 ratio by weight. It is this pemmican that was sold to the fur traders who ate it exclusively for months on end with no outward signs of ill health. There is no offal in pemmican. IIRC one of the benefits of eating offal is that one obtains folate from it. There is no folate in muscle meat IIRC. Given the fact that very little if any part of any animal other than muscle meat is eaten by anyone today, any concerns about eating only muscle meat could apply to anyone eating only muscle meat not just those doing zero carb. So pick one’s targets carefully.

And I am surprised that no one has brought up the whole issue of iodine deficiency on an all meat diet or even in the general population at large. So where are the experts on this one? Gone missing it seems.

The evidence about what constitutes a healthy diet has certainly not been decided. And I would hazard that I doubt that anyone taking a vitamin pill to make up for said supposed deficiencies is getting a guarantee of good health.

Regarding B12 deficiency: “It is of far greater importance to correct intestinal flora problems than to spend our lives relying on so-called supplements. People who have a physical problem because they think they are not getting enough vitamin B12, are in fact often not digesting, absorbing or assimilating their foods properly because of the condition of their gastrointestinal tract. When their intestines are healed, vitamin B12 can be utilized and produced once again.” http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html Seemed liked a fair article on the subject that at least explores a range of issues. And from a raw food site no less.

Anon3, you sort of make my point. Depending on who reads it and which parts you select, the opinion will vary and still conform to the truth as Stefansson saw it. But why disregard all other sources? Weston Price?

When it comes to pemmican, I have no reason to question that it will keep for many years (when properly made) but that doesn’t necessarily mean that people ate pemmican and nothing else for years. When they hunted meat for their pemmican making, would they not have eaten of the fresh animal?

And I would hazard that I doubt that anyone taking a vitamin pill to make up for said supposed deficiencies is getting a guarantee of good health.

True. In the specific case of the Kimkins Diet, the addition of a multivitamin was completely unable to prevent rabbit starvation. No supplement can guarantee anything.

Kimmer had many faults, but one thing she did not do was to wax poetic about the ability of a skinless chicken breast, an egg white omelet and a finger grab of lettuce to provide all the vitamins and minerals her followers would need. When the Kimkins survivors came out of the cult, at least they didn’t have to cope with a learned aversion to supplements.

The Plains Indians did not live exclusively on pemmican. It was travel food for them. And would you please provide evidence of these trappers who lived exclusively on pemmican, Anon3? They would have had modern storage foods as well, most likely.

Stargazey “When the Kimkins survivors came out of the cult, at least they didn’t have to cope with a learned aversion to supplements.”

I am reading this, correct me if I am wrong, that you believe that supplements are a cure all for vitamin deficiencies? I am extremely skeptical that this is the case. Just an extreme skepticism from reading all these new studies that excess C, E, etc. don’t really do any one any good and in fact may be harmful.

All these blog posts and comments really boil down to one principle concept IMO. Do not entrust your health to any internet site. Be it CW, or Satya, or Jimmy Moore’s Livin La Vida Low Carb, or ALC, or Active No Carber forum, or Low Carb Friends, or Raw Paleo, or Magic Bus or any of the other myriad forums and web sites that deal with ‘health’.

All these sites have medical disclaimers attached to them. Or they should if they don’t. Even the Mayo Clinic includes a disclaimer on their web site. They are there for a reason folks. They all have an agenda to push and can point to the disclaimers regarding any liability that may arise based on what is on their site.

Figure out the agenda and the expertise of the those in charge and those who post. Take everything with a large grain of salt and a healthy does of skepticism. Weigh the pros and cons of any action you may take based on the advice given. Make an informed decision. Listen to no one guru.

The only reason any of these sites exist IMHO is that the modern medical establishment is a complete and abject failure when it comes to chronic diseases. A lot of scientific research is pseudo science. Pharmaceutical companies and big agriculture have government and private industry in their back pocket. Just look at the food pyramid when it comes to big agriculture for example.

It is your life and your health. Make an informed decision. Trust no one.

I couldn’t agree more, Anon3.

I am reading this, correct me if I am wrong, that you believe that supplements are a cure all for vitamin deficiencies?

Trying again: NO.

To have full and honest discussions of this WOE, I think joining a more open board, where discussion is allowed, might help.

This site seems like just the place:

http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about1371.html

I love their perspective.

Great thread.

And another person has left ZIOH. He found he had to add some carbs because he was unhealthy on ZC, he had no energy. http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2012&pid=187426#pid187426

It seems that more and more people are coming out of the woodwork now that the truth is starting to come out and people are having an open dialogue about the pros and cons of ZC.

“It is your life and your health. Make an informed decision. Trust no one.”

This is what I’ve been trying to do all my life Anon3, “this” meaning to make an informed decision. I’ve got a buttload of books in my study room. The only exception is ZIOH. I got trapped in a cult. And that’s a different story altogether, because now we are dealing with different issues such as brainwashing etc. It’s easy to say “trust no one”, but when you are trapped in a cult, rational thinking for a lot of people goes flying out the window.

“Trust no one” is great, but eventually you have to trust someone to move forward in your search for health. Unfortunately you often end up going backwards. I could not just trust myself forever because my health kept deteriorating.

Before modern civilization showed it’s ugly head by way of disease, I just followed the WOE I grew up with. I never questioned the health of these foods. I was healthy, relatively speaking, and living a happy life. Which brings me to the following question:

What is real health? Is it the way you are feeling right now and how do you compare this to the way someone else is feeling healthy right now? You could have 40% percent less energy than this someone else but you don’t know it because you are not as active as this someone else is. Is it health determined by some modern man-made machine, or some blood tests, scoring levels defined by modern civilization as a healthy levels? Or is it health when you compare it to the feeling you had when you were having The Flu? What is health?? I just know I don’t feel great when my BG levels are high, and I feel better when they are lower and that I feel better when my body looks like the anatomical illustration of a human body, and not like something that could resemble the body of a baby elephant or even a stick man.

Furthermore, how can you make an “informed decision” and “trust no one” AT THE SAME TIME? Where do you get the information from? It must be from someone WHOM YOU TRUST, IMO. And how do YOU, Anon3, judge your level of health? Have you had some blood tests done? Have these tests scored acceptable levels, as defined by someone WHOM YOU TRUST? Or are you just feeling healthy, as defined by yourself?

I visit many low-carb sites and I DO take most things I read on there with a pinch of salt. I do NOT do what many people on these forums seem to do. They just join whatever forum and start doing “Adkins” without ever having read even one book written by Dr. Atkins – “are potatoes allowed during induction?”. I have trust in Dr. Atkins and I’ve read all of his books. I’m not saying he got everything right. But he did literally save MY life. Before I came across his books, him having been a Cardiologist, I never even knew cutting carbs is a possibility for me to get healthier. Before I came across Dr. Atkins, I’ve tried many low-fat diets out there to get a handle on my diabetes. Nothing worked, of course, so I kept searching for the answer.

I’ve been doing Atkins ‘72 VLC for almost a decade now. Not to lose weight (with the exception of getting rid of the few pesky pounds I gained while I was a member of ZIOH) but to remain, relatively speaking, healthy. I’ve also been taking all the supplements he recommends taking. I’ve tried to stop once, and felt the ill effects of doing so.

So for ME, cutting carbs and taking supplements are what my body needs, and what saved my life.

Did I make an informed decision when I went to ZIOH? No. I followed a reasoning approach which wasn’t necessary bad, but it got dangerous when I got brainwashed by a super powerful evil force that leads a cult, and more… Luckily I escaped and lost those few pesky pounds and got my health back. And now I just want to alert the remaining few members of ZIOH to get out of there too.

I have no issues with how Satya, Pilotgal etc. are eating. They are free thinkers and are in good health now, as per their definition of good health.

Pure ZC as defined by ZIOH is not pure at all. The Inuits’ diet their one or two resources have followed is totally irrelevant. Those Inuits were never eating the SAD diet for years and years and years and for someone who has done exectly that to now say the Inuit diet (or ZIOH’s version of it) is going to cure the damage caused by the SAD is laughable. Also, the Inuits got their bodies adapted to their WOE over several GENERATIONS! How’s that going to work for a former SAD eater in his/her single generation? Also, I don’t think the Inuit ate only muscle meat from grain-fed cows for years and years and years, if ever. The entire thing is just flawed in so many ways!

I can never be “pure ZC” because I hate organ meats and I think it’s quite difficult to catch a whale and I believe most whales have not been contaminated by modern civilization. I also don’t have any desire to go catch a bear, which is an animal that will eat berries when it comes across some. Plus, I don’t WANT to be “pure ZC” anymore, and this is an informed decision coupled with listening to my own body and Dr. Atkins.

Also, do the Inuit live in an air polluted environment? Do they run half marathons in heat just for fun? You cannot just look at a certain tribe’s WOE and simply ignore large parts of their WOL, environment and their bodies’ adaptation to their WOE over several GENERATIONS. It’s quite ironic how Darwin’s theory is used when convenient and ignored when it’s not.

I’ve use just a simple few arguments in this comment and I strongly suspect this comment by me is going to be quoted and pulled apart by lots of “buts”. I don’t care. I’ve been there, done that and got the damage. Therefore I DO care for the remaining few members over at ZIOH.

@Satya

Page 200 of NBBA and most likely one can find other evidence:

“It is certain that both Indians and trappers lived on dried meat or pemmican for very long stretches at a time, for stretches repeated so often that in sum they amounted to a very considerable fraction of every year. It is equally certain that both Indians and trappers greatly preferred pemmican to merely dried meat.”

Page 178 of NBBA:

“Its most impressive record as the exclusive diet, or nearly so, of large numbers of men for long periods, is from transportation crews of the trade working twelve to eighteen hours a day and straight through the noon period with its scorching or steaming heat.”

Anti_ZIOH_Cult: Thank you! I have been around on diet boards for years too, and I have always wondered why people are drawn to some prolific poster (like Kimmer, but there are many other examples) and then follow their advice blindly. What you say makes so much sense. We need to trust someone and sometimes that trust gets badly misplaced.

Anon3, now I don’t see NBBA as “evidence” but note that he says “a very considerable fraction of each year.” That means that they didn’t eat pemmican only for years on end.

On this subject, there was a “discussion” on ZIOH this morning.

Poster 1: I know I’ve not been ZC for 6 months yet and my opinions aren’t weighted that heavily, but I’ve been eating grain-fed beef since I started and I feel just great

Poster 2: Be careful with that type of reasoning. Plenty of vegans also feel great initially, often for a few years. Then at some point they run into deficiency issues and get fatigued, sick, etc. Some gross deficiency diseases occur quickly, but others take time to develop. I have a former vegan friend who went down that path.

I like and follow the all meat path, but we should keep separate what we know and what we take on faith.

CW: Yes, I suppose we should keep a little bit of fear for no good reason in our psyche just in case…. Comparisons with raw vegans? Whatever.

“CW: Yes, I suppose we should keep a little bit of fear for no good reason in our psyche just in case…. Comparisons with raw vegans? Whatever.”

100% Typical. I hope poster 1 and poster 2 RUN!!!

Anon3, I was rather hoping for a first hand testimonial from some trapper who ate in such a way, rather than Stefansson’s assertions about others. I wonder if Lewis and Clark had any experience with pemmican? I know some of their crew experienced rabbit starvation at some point, so maybe not.

well i have tansitioned from a ZC diet to a low carb one incresing my carbs everyday. i have even hd a big ol bie out of a baked potato! guess what im still alive and kickin. what have i learned? ZC doesnt predict weight loss its a matter of whether you are burning fatty acids or glucose simple as that. which one is healthier? prolly both. glucose levels in the blood should never constantly be high, but having them go up and down is NATURAL. when yo initially go ZC yeah you lose you wter weight and weight ini general because sat fat works like that. but come 6mths to a year into it…its all about calories again jus like any other diet. its controlledby your ppetite which is nilch so you arent eating over you BMR. simple decisions an simple appetite. it works for them, especially the bulimics. they are essentially recovered because they have no outside sources tempting or promoting overeating. i ind it an essential core decision for a bulimic, it works or them. regarding anorexia, find i a relapse waiting to happen. too much control, too much ritual and repitition.
i hae also learned i wont blow up with carbs, vegetables TASTE good upon to addiition of lots of butter, ghee or olive oil. and im in a rut now because im losing weight some frikin how which obviously goes against any common wisdom with zero carb.

just putting my experience out there. but i really think y’all should get a day job and lay off the ZIOH forum. if you dont have anything nice to say dont say anything at all. i dont see where the fantasy obsession with these people lies. it’s not your life, its theirs. its not your deciison, its theirs. if they feel fine living their lives and eating their meat who the hell are you to care otherwise? Charles does not go around websites tryig to promote himself and site like Matt Stone does. he simply lets people find their way their and make a PERSONAL INFORMED decision to do that they do.

Regarding “trust no one”. That really should have been expanded to read “trust no ONE source”. E.g. IMO, Atkins had no cred w/o Eades as the 1st Atkins book had “few if any” references to the damaging effects of elevated insulin from carbs. Could be wrong about that has I do not own a copy of Atkins 72 but that is what I have read. It should also probably be expanded as “trust no one source” that cannot back up their claim w/o solid scientific evidence or historical accounts. Even that is troublesome as Dr. McDougall uses science to back up his vegetarian slant as does Dr. Furhman IIRC. Both of who I consider to be “cult” leaders as they recognize no other WOE but their own.

The problem with saying that eating an all grain fed muscle meat diet is dangerous is that there is no proof that it is dangerous. Site me the scientific articles. No speculation allowed or inferences to be drawn from other cultures unless they ate exclusively grain fed muscle meat. It MAY be. It may NOT be. To keep inferring it is dangerous is just drama. One needs proof. Scientific proof. One could make the argument that eating only raw grass fed meat is dangerous as well. Don’t believe there is any proof of that either.

Proper science is repeatable science. No one ever takes the word from one study as gospel. It is not part of the scientific method. No one should not do the same with ‘health’ advice.

My only point in briefly skimming NBBA regarding pemmican is just to point out that people ate it for long periods and it didn’t kill them nor as far as I can tell cause them any outward signs of disease. Pemmican is made from muscle meat only IIRC. Scurvy is pretty prevalent in NBBA so I am fairly confident Stef would have reported deficiency diseases had they occurred.

As I said before the current medical establishment has failed us in preventing chronic disease such as diabetes, heart disease, etc. People are looking for answers where they can find them. It is obvious they will try ANYTHING. Things like Optifast, Kimkins, etc. The internet has just made this all easier to attempt.

Enjoying the comments here. I am also an ex zcer. I felt dizzy and spacey and was not willing to give it six months. I truly frightened myself while driving and doing simple tasks due to the lack of energy I felt physically and mentally.
Something mentioned here about living on grain/corn fed animals just never made sense to me. I just blindly followed and figured I was just missing something but now I feel if your diet is all meat you need to eat grass fed to fully reap the benefits.

Mallory, before you left ZIOH, you were actually gaining weight, you freaked out because your weight reached some where around 112lb, you were inconsolable , I think you left ZC because it was actually working for you, and you were gaining weight, now you are back to LC and losing weight, how’s that considered a recovery? I think you are loving the fact you are losing weight. Shame, but I think you are having a relapse and you can’t bare the fact that ZC was working for you and you were starting to recover.

@mariamaria How long where you doing zc? Induction flu even on Atkins can last awhile. This is very common initially on a carb restricted diet and may have nothing to do with being zc per se.

@Commentator. Let’s leave speculation regarding Mallory’s motives out of the equation. She neither asked for it nor IMO warrants it. Yours is just another ad hominem attack. Not really the point of this discussion at all.

Commenter, I think you are missing something. No, you are missing A LOT. Gaining weight is about 10% of an anorexic’s recovery. Also, an ED is no longer classified as an Axis II disease. It’s now an Axis I disease and often coupled with BD. That explains the mood swings. No amount of psychological therapy (e.g. CBT) alone is going to do it for a person suffering from an ED. Let alone a diet!

Mallory, I’m glad you are adding some variety to your diet without too much anxiety. I hope that you can find peace with food without continuing to lose weight. I wish you the best of health.

I’m sorry that you can’t understand why people care what happens at ZIOH. I’ll speak just for myself – I’m outraged over how people get treated there and at how the advice given there is messing people up and I’m not even talking about the diet. The place is emotionally abusive.

If your friend was being regularly beaten by their husband would you mind your own business or would you fight for her? There are people who would indeed mind their own business, and those people probably don’t understand people who are moved to help. To me it’s the difference between peace lovers and peace makers. Peace lovers don’t make waves. Peace makers take action against injustices. I’m not saying one is better than the other, but that it’s hard for them to understand each other.

There are people happily ZCing in many other places. It seems to me that there is far less outrage over ZC than over ZIOH itself.

The master has spoken again. “Keep your fears to yourself unless you can justify them with something concrete.”

WTF?? OMG!! I guess Mariasol’s blog is “something concrete” then… I won’t call out any names but the fear factor has been well explored by Anon3 on Mariasol’s previous blog post…

The sad thing is that CW’s latest command, “Keep your fears to yourself unless you can justify them with something concrete” is spoken to none other than Joe, the poor guy who has been trying so hard, right here on this blog, to defend the way ZIOH works. You can see the beginning of the altercation here: http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=141&pid=193526#pid193526

Joe is trying to give a reality check and ends up getting mocked and put down by CW. And here’s the typical treatment anyone questioning the master’s dogma can expect from the loyal followers: “Huh, Joe? You’re saying that even though we all feel great eating all meat right now, we might not eventually??? I really hope that’s not what you’re saying because you’re gonna get some woop ass from Charles and a lot of others right quick… Meat contains every vitamin we need save D, right? How could we become deficient?”

Scary how people can be so willfully blind.

The master has spoken, “You’ve made your point, it’s just been rejected.”

Apparently one is not to be curious about anything at all on that forum.

The master has spoken, “We don’t need to concern ourselves with “sources” of vitamins because that whole hypothesis is backwards. Meat and water is the primary diet for humans so whatever is there is necessary. Whatever is scarce or not available from such a diet is therefore not necessary.”

That is really sad, A. Nonny Mouse.

Joe, I hope you have more self respect than to tolerate the bullying. You’re a grown man.

I don’t understand why CW is so opposed to supplements. If you don’t like liver or don’t eat eggs what’s wrong with a daily multivitamin pill? Or fish oil? Or calcium? You really don’t want to find out years after the fact that your body took the required calcium from your own bones.

Mariasol, you’re apparently not paying attention to the master!

Bully tactics – the bastion of choice for CW against the sound argumentation of people like Joe and E. Life IS complex. Anyone who says otherwise with a straight face might well be nutrient deficient, lol.

CW says, “Keep your fears to yourself unless you can justify them with something concrete.”

I guess that one of the things that bothers me most about ZIOH is that not only does CW abuse the members, but the other members sit by quietly and watch it happen over and over and over. Do they derive vicarious satisfaction from seeing someone else put down? Does it make them feel superior to the victims? Is the drama addictive to them in some way?

Stargazey, I agree with you, but I think only certain members sit by and watch it happen comfortably or gleefully. I think there are a lot of people there who just try to keep their heads down. This is also common in abusive situations.

“the other members sit by quietly and watch it happen over and over and over. Do they derive vicarious satisfaction from seeing someone else put down? Does it make them feel superior to the victims? Is the drama addictive to them in some way?”

All of the above in my opinion.

The quote A. Nonny Mouse referenced above from Cynthia in Joe’s journal just shows you how much power CW wields over some of them. Cynthia used to question him but now not only does she eat his nonsense up she parrots it back to others who are questioning things.

LOL @ Satya!!

I’m very shocked to hear it was Joe who got this treatment. He is a very kind man and even on here he behaved like a civilized, well educated man (he’s in Academics, BTW). I have seen him post on ALC (if it’s the same man) and I hope he makes that place his permanent home from now on.

I also believe he made the effort to attend the NYC meAt-up. Just more proof that The Leader will turn on ANYONE.

Joe, if you read this, please PM your ZIOH friends to alert them to leave with you. Give them the link to this blog please?

“I guess that one of the things that bothers me most about ZIOH is that not only does CW abuse the members, but the other members sit by quietly and watch it happen over and over and over. Do they derive vicarious satisfaction from seeing someone else put down? Does it make them feel superior to the victims? Is the drama addictive to them in some way?”

Yeah. Drama whores indeed!

However, when I was a member I kept quiet to avoid a whipping. Pathetic, I know. But I was behaving subservient, as cult members do, to a point…

“I don’t understand why CW is so opposed to supplements. If you don’t like liver or don’t eat eggs what’s wrong with a daily multivitamin pill? Or fish oil? Or calcium? You really don’t want to find out years after the fact that your body took the required calcium from your own bones.”

I believe that if he supports supplements openly, he’s going to admit his diet is severely lacking and a cult leader would never do such a thing.

I bet my bottom dollar he’s got a buttload of supplements sitting on top of his fridge, or next to the tallow on his kitchen counter. However, we already know he’s not into tallow anymore, butter is now his fat of choice. The very same thing he had “no use” for a while ago.

“We don’t need to concern ourselves with “sources” of vitamins because that whole hypothesis is backwards. Meat and water is the primary diet for humans so whatever is there is necessary. Whatever is scarce or not available from such a diet is therefore not necessary.”

Did he really say that, OYB?!? If so, this is Looney Tunes science at its finest.

Once again, CW displays manic and even psychotic behavior, above.

When I discreetely hinted that I was CONSIDERING taking some supplements again, I got the hyena pack attack, led by the honorable “Dr.” Washington. I was told that if I cannot absorb the nutrients from the grain-fed muscle meat, how the hell was I going to absorb the nutrients from a pill?

Er… they ignored the possibility that the nutrients were not in the grain-fed muscle meat in the first place!

I was also told that if I do decide to take supplements my journal would get closed and I would become a lurker because I wouldn’t be “ZC” anymore. Just like that. End of story. Disturbing.

Joe, again, if you read this, please send a message to your TRUE friends (obviously not Charles and crew who you have met in NYC) with links to this blog, the ZC thread on ALC and Satya’s new site. If you’ve got their e-mail addresses/telephone numbers it’s best to use those because I KNOW for a fact TPTB on ZIOH read pm’s. And PLEASE take Erasmus with you! Best wishes.

I have seen MANY members ask where all the negative publicity was coming from, but those in the know keep their lips sealed and I’ve seen CW delete a link to this blog at least twice. If he is so confident as he pretends to be, why is he trying to keep his members away from this blog? This sounds like isolation – Cult activities in action!

I’m considering joining ZIOH again, undercover this time. It’s not that difficult… It’s very easy to get a false IP. I already know of one member who has done exactly this. But he’s very scared and have very little spare time. I would play along for a while and then do a hit-and-run.

Just the idea that someone would be ’scared’ to be discovered over there says something, doesn’t it?

For ZIOH members looking to leave, do not trust that PMs are private. It’s very likely Charles and maybe moderators are reading them. It’s a control thing.

Anti_ZIOH_Cult “I won’t call out any names but the fear factor has been well explored by Anon3 on Mariasol’s previous blog post…”

Huh? Could be wrong but I don’t think I ever went there.

I really liked this quote from Joe directed at CW:

“You’re right. I like to keep facts, probable events, and conjectures straight in my head, as yes, it does help me think more clearly. I suspect this difference is why we have different day jobs. In court what is true or false makes little difference, it’s who creates a convincing story. In science, having the right position for a bad reason scores you few points.

“I’ve read GCBC, TaT, etc., and wholeheartedly agree there is plenty of support for CHO being the enemy and causing DoC. But comparing us to how people in the U.S. ate in 1900? Let’s look at some differences. Dairy consumption was probably far far higher. Heck, even tossing out milk it was probably higher. Organ meats? I recall my grandparents grumbling that no one ate organs anymore (not a thorough study, but a data point). Meat was the focus, but did they really eat no plant matter? No berries in season, or the occasional vegetable? Saying that it wasn’t a large part of the diet doesn’t work as we’re talking about trace deficiencies.

“Do I believe ZC works? Yes. Note the word “believe.” Do I wish there was more evidence? Sure. But in life you typically have to act with imperfect information. Do I lie in bed at night worried about a deficiency 20 years from now? Nope. Do I from time to time think over eggs, cheese, and organ meats? Yep.”

And I also like this quote from Anti_ZIOH_Cult:
“I believe that if he supports supplements openly, he’s going to admit his diet is severely lacking and a cult leader would never do such a thing.”

I agree about the master’s view of supplements. He’s built his house of cards way too tall to concede that there could in any way be anything imperfect about his doctrine. He reserves the right to modify his truth at will but not if it would imply flaws.

“Huh? Could be wrong but I don’t think I ever went there.”

Exploring fear? Suzanne’s fear? You went there alright.

Anon3, I was simply pointing out the irony in CW’s comment about fear and “something concrete”.

Anti, I think the confusion between you and Anon3 is context. The FEAR in the master’s quote that I posted was regarding a member (Joe, maybe?) wondering what long term ZC results might reveal. The master didn’t like that this person wasn’t just assuming that because he feels great now then ZC has put him, and will keep him, in perfect health indefinitely. This was a very relevant and sane post, which of course yeilded a less sane knuckle rapping from the master.

I think you’re talking about Suzanne’s fears about being stalked (whatev…) for the way she serves up emotional abuse (er… is direct).

Now CW is arguing about iodine with his own moderator, MAC. “We don’t need salt because the Inuits never ate any.”

What about fish? Kelp?

I still haven’t found this isolated Inuit population that ate caribou and nothing else as CW claims.

OYB, I know exactly what you were referring to. I just thought it was quite ironic that CW said Joe shouldn’t fear anything unless he’s got “something concrete”. At the same time Suzanne is fearing us (look at page 4 of her journal) WITHOUT having “something concrete” and CW supports that. So, again, I was just pointing out the irony and inconsistency

I.E. CW doesn’t fear us (or so he says) because (and this is a conclusion I got to in his reply to Joe) we aren’t “something concrete”. At the same time he supports Suzanne’s fear of us.

And I DO know CW wasn’t referring to us in his reply to Joe. It’s all about irony and inconsistency

LOL Mariasol! I now even feel compelled to talk about CW’s intelligence or lack of it but I won’t. We don’t need salt?? My heart would be very unhappy if I don’t give it any salt.

Where did Chuck support Suzanne’s fear? I thought he poo pooed it?

“Where did Chuck support Suzanne’s fear? I thought he poo pooed it?”

LOL@ “Chuck”!! I think it was in her journal. Yes, initially he was “angry” (but I take this with a pinch of salt). It was all part of a damage control strategy

Ohyeahbabe said, “There are people happily ZCing in many other places. It seems to me that there is far less outrage over ZC than over ZIOH itself.”

Exactly. Satya and I are very active in engaging in debates regaring ZC/VLC/Carnivore on ALC. We discuss everything from eating raw meat to iodine to intermittent fasting (which I got ripped for at ZIOH) to weightlifting to salt intake…we have a completely open forum.

I am now eating ground beef and eggs, and I now feel that with the addition of eggs, I am hitting all of my nutrient bases–as much as one can with diet alone.

I feel on top of the world to be both Zero Carb and a member of ALC with awesome friends and people who are fascinated by science. I would love a shout out to Moises, Nicklas, Paleoeat, and Satya in this particular respect, along with capmikee and Hutchinson and a few others. We have a forum of very smart people united in our belief that carbs should be low for optimal human fitness and health. We differ on the amount and necessity of going very low.

The moderator, MAC, eventually got with the program by concluding that the Plains Indians did not suffer from lack of iodine and they ate just buffalo.
I don’t know what he bases this statement on. The sources I looked at mentioned vegetables and berries as well. Plus that they ate organ meats and blood.

Not very similar to a diet of ground beef, in my opinion.

@mariasol You got the wrong person. That was Ken who injected the Plains Indians and iodine and buffalo.

Anon3, you are right. They are both without avatars so I missed that Ken had posted in the long string of posts by MAC.

More “ZIOH-science” from the same thread by CW:

“And someone took exception to my calling Scurvy a vitamin B-12 deficiency, suggesting that it’s really about vitamin C. You can’t blame them because that’s what everyone says, but I’m not so sure. History shows that Vitamin C was only marginally effective against scurvy whereas meat was always effective even though it has very little vitamin C. So I ask you, was it truly a vitamin C deficiency?

And if eating those vegetables keeps us from properly absorbing the iodine, then for those who have effectively reversed their goiters with salt, it must be that the excess iodine overcomes the loss normally brought on by consuming cruciferous vegetables. So again, if you drop the vegetables, you have no problem getting your iodine. As Taubes so eloquently stated, “Carbohydrates cause us to lose nutrients that are normally available in good supply when eating meat only.”

The same is true for scurvy since vitamin C and glucose take the same uptake route and compete with one another. If you stop eating that which blocks your vitamin C pathways, then you’ll readily absorb or synthesize what is necessary from the meat that you eat. When vitamin C works, that means it only allows you to overcome that which was draining the body to begin with. However, the source of the potential drain remains. In the case of the cruciferous vegetables, if you continue to eat them along with your iodine supplementation, you have not eliminated the drain and you also run the risk of excess iodine. I feel the same is true regarding Vitamin D or any other someone wants to name.

Moreover, Price’s research indicates that our bodies automatically lower the levels of some vitamins to protect us from a surplus of another. A common example is iron. Our bodies lower iron levels to compensate from too much vitamin A. Supplementing during such a period would be very dangerous and cause our insides to “rust.”"

——

I have seen CW make the statement that lime juice didn’t cure scurvy many times. I don’t know if he is purposely misleading or just ignorant.

The statement is supposedly based on the fact that some explorers got scurvy despite bringing lime juice with them. However, this juice was cooked as that was the preservation method they used in those times. Of course, cooking destroys Vitamin C. Fresh lime juice cures scurvy and there are many sources that testify to this fact.
In the same way, to get any Vitamin C from meat, you would need to keep some part of it not fully cooked.

Look at this on scurvy:
http://liveonearth.livejournal.com/138070.html

And then let’s look at Danny’s legs, as he is a zc follower, and please read the comments.
http://www.carnivorehealth.com/main/2009/11/27/dry-fasting-its-gnarly-effects.html Note Dr. Harris’s comment where he thought it was k2 deficiency.

And now let me be blunt: Anyone with half a brain will realize that ZIOH is full of shit and irresponsible at the very least. I will not even address the middle school dramatics of it. The blatant misrepresentation of well-researched factual information could well put Charles Washington at risk for liability to ill health anyone suffers at his recommendations, no demands. Does he have a disclaimer up yet, anyway?

I present information friendly to my cause, but I would never be so stupid as to pretend that well-researched associations and causations are all poo poo in the face of an all meat diet. Geeze Louise!

Gee. Scrutiny of every word said on that forum but no one can find the Medical disclaimer?

http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=9

“You understand that a private citizen without any professional training in the medical, health, and nutritional field is providing the services. You understand that these services are provided without a health examination and without prior discussion of my health condition. You understand that in no way will zeroinginonhealth provide medical advice, and that no medical advice is contained within this site or the services provided.”

“You understand that these services are not intended as a substitute for consultation with a licensed healthcare practioner, such as your physician. Before you begin any weight loss or fitness program, or change your nutritional regimen, you will consult your physician or other licensed healthcare practioner to ensure that you are in good health and that these services will not harm you.”

“You understand that these services are not intended as a substitute for consultation with a licensed healthcare practioner, such as your physician. Before you begin any weight loss or fitness program, or change your nutritional regimen, you will consult your physician or other licensed healthcare practioner to ensure that you are in good health and that these services will not harm you.”

Duplicated 2nd paragraph was meant to read “You understand that there are risks associated with the use of these services. Use of these services implies that you assume all risks, known and unknown, inherent to exercise, workout programs, nutrition programs, and physical changes and/or injuries which may result from the use of these services.”

Satya’s comment on Danny’s blog: “Glad things are improving for you, Danny. It is a shame that you did not just tweak one factor (ie. either the vitamin C or the larger pemmican intake). I would venture to say it’s the vitamin C.”

So Dr. Harris thinks it is a K2 deficiency but that doesn’t stop Satya from chiming in as to the cause. What isn’t good for the goose (CW) is good for the gander (Satya).

Satya chimed in before Dr. Harris; how typical of you to take the information out of context. I did not make a statement of fact either. It sure looked like scurvy symptoms from the photo. Someone who suffered from scurvy on all meat said the same.

And I am certainly not claiming that an all muscle meat, no seasoning diet has all the required nutrients for human beings. In fact, I have pointed many people to Primal Wisdom blog post where zc in fact failed to meet the requirements for some nutrients, even with bone stocks and liver thrown in the mix.

http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/search?q=zero+carb
“Alas, so far I could not do so, even when I included chicken liver in the daily diet to provide folate (chicken liver has about 400 mcg folate per 4 ounce serving). Although liver is very nutrient dense, without nuts (source of trace minerals not so well supplied by meat) and produce, I could not get adequate levels of vitamin C, vitamin E, magnesium, manganese, or potassium.”

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.”
Through the Looking Glass

Vitamin B-12=Vitamin C=glucose=iodine=Vitamin D

Or something.

And since we did have a medical doctor advising Danny about his health problem, let me just quote the good doctor here. His opinion is obviously much more qualified than mine. I have blocked the quote with lines as it is lengthy.
____________________________

Danny

In the followup post you say: “given that I’ve only had rendered fat and powdered lean meat for almost a year”

Is that true?

You know that Stefannson and Shackleton both emphasized fresh meat, right?

I appreciate you linking my essay, but it is one thing to say there are not magical plant compounds or plant derived supplements, and another to think that beef pemmican and water is all you need for an animal product diet. I would never endorse that as healthy.

It may be possible to minimize plant intake with lots of fresh raw (or rare) meat, pastured butter, and organ meats (liver) but how can you possibly get enough K2 with non-fresh beef. The bruising is highly suggestive of K2 deficiency.

If you truly cannot tolerate raw beef ( alopecia is an immune reaction) you may even be allergic to beef protein. Yes, there actually is such a thing, just like some are allergic to dairy, some are allergic to bovine serum albumin. This might explain greater tolerance for cooked or dried meat – denaturation of allergens.

Why not eat pastured eggs and fish?

Why does ZC prohibit butter? Because it has micrograms of evil carbs?

Detox causing a rash? Medically, that is pure crap and you are risking your health listening to the people telling you that,

Cast aside the religion of “zero carb”. See a dermatologist and get a diagnosis. Find out what if you are allergic to beef protein.

Then start taking multivitamins or bette yet expand your real food diet to include green salads, liver and pastured butter.

BTW, the “Bear Worship” is getting ridiculous. An acid-manufacturing ex-roadie is a nutritional biochemistry expert? GIve me break.

This ZC shit is starting to look crazier to me all the time.

Good luck to you and please at least see a dermatologist.
_________________

Kurt Harris, MD

A medical disclaimer may not protect a citizen when that citizen is demanding adherence to a diet as part of the requirements for joining a forum. IOW, a judge might find that the citizen is acting the part of a medical doctor or nutrition expert by his very actions in this regard, and is thus practicing without a license. As a former fitness professional, I understand full well the liabilities involved when going beyond the scope of practice with a client. CW has a whole flock of sheep he is playing nutritional guru with, and I don’t believe he is qualified to give the blanket remarks that he does (meat and water is all any of us need). If he would leave his forum as it was before the questionnaire stuff, this would not be an issue. By tightening the noose around others he might be tightening it around his own neck as well. But I would not know for sure, as I am not in the legal profession.

I can spot at least two diet gurus who fit the bill. How many can you spot?

Narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder: Placing Self First

Narcissistic personality disorder produces feelings of exaggerated self-worth and personal importance. To the narcissist the world and other people exist only to verify his or her superiority and to cater to all his or her needs. The disorder is characterized by a lack of regard or empathy for others, selfishness, and an unrealistic sense of self-entitlement in all situations.

Symptoms of Narcissism

Narcissistic personality disorder symptoms stem from the narcissist’s self-absorption and over-exaggerated sense of self-worth. People with narcissistic personality disorder are quite willing to take advantage of, manipulate, or lie to others to achieve their own desires and gratification. When a narcissist values a person, it is only because that person has something to offer. Narcissism reduces other people to the status of servants or useful tools.

Common symptoms include:

- a lack of feeling, empathy, or concern for others
- a willingness to take advantage of others
- excessive feelings of self-importance
- exaggerated personal achievements and abilities
- an expectation to be seen as superior without cause
- a fantasy or is preoccupation with power, wealth, beauty, personal abilities, or success
- a demand for favorable treatment without appropriate reasons
- an insiststance on being the object of admiration and attention.

In accordance with the DSM-IV, a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder is considered when five or more of the following criteria are present:

- has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
- is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
- believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
- requires excessive admiration
- has a sense of entitlement, i.e. unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
- is interpersonally exploitative (i.e. takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends)
- lacks empathy, i.e. is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
- is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
- shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

I think I’m starting to love Dr. Harris

Did any of you see this article by Anthony Colpo?

http://www.anthonycolpo.com/Can_Low_Carb_Diets_Make_You_Crazy.html

I wonder if the first few paragraphs are inspired by CW and ZIOH? I wouldn’t be suprised if they were.

JDN, thank you for the link. “incoherent ‘gurus’” LOL. For sure this article is about ZIOH.

ETA: Yes, it’s really just the introductory paragraphs that seem to refer to ZIOH.

The title is “Can Low-Carb Diets Make You Crazy?” and the article starts with:

“Great question – and after my experiences with the online low-carb ‘community’ and a certain of their incoherent ‘gurus’, I couldn’t help but wonder the same thing. These people seem to have a far greater than normal capacity for denying reality, and for going off like a wayward firecracker when someone presents views that contradict their cherished dogma. And their penchant for performing all manner of mental contortionism in order to rationalize scientifically untenable beliefs would garner envy from even the most fanatical Creationist.

Is this a case of the diet causing people to behave irrationally, or irrational people being attracted to this style of eating? Or is the behavior of the low-carb ‘community’ just another example of the human tendency to form sectarian groups that promulgate an either-or mentality, that reinforce their own beliefs by selectively feeding each other with supportive ‘evidence’, and reacting with hostility towards those who present opposing viewpoints and non-supportive evidence?

After observing the antics of low-carbers and other dietary sectarians, and reviewing the research examining the actual effects of diet on mood and cognition, I’m inclined to think that a combination of all the above factors is in play. “

@JDN, Mariasol. For who don’t know their history, Colpo’s reference to the guru is about Dr. Eades: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/

Just search for Colpo on his site.

Once again all the speculators are wrong. Amazing how often that happens.

Read all the blog posts between Colpo and Dr. Eades and tell me who the ‘incoherent guru’ is after reading their exchange.

You really don’t have to go far to find evidence of the ‘feud’ between Dr. Eades and Colpo. In fact he mentions him today in his blog post: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/travel/back-from-mexico/

“As for my own content on this blog, the next post will be the long-awaited and promised post examining and critiquing Anthony Colpo’s Fat Loss Bible. It will actually be a two-part post with the first part devoted to showing the errors of Anthony’s thinking vis a vis the metabolic advantage, and the second will be an in-depth look at a famous paper that Antony has dismissed out of hand but which, as you shall see, is really a brilliant study. With these two posts, I’ll put paid to Anthony Colpo and hope to never mention him again.”

And given Colpo’s disdain for low carb proponents, one might think he would take exception to Dr. Bernstein’s diet which limits carbs to under 30 a day and NO fruit for diabetics. Conventional ‘wisdom’ is ofter wrong. http://comfort-eaters-diet.blogspot.com/2010/02/diabetes-discussion.html

I have mixed feelings about Anthony.

It is clear that he is ANTI-low-carb. It is also clear that the doctors he attacks in his post is PRO-low-carb. I wonder what WOE Anthony’s following? Is he looking at studies (randomly, I might add, to fit his point) performed on otherwise healthy individuals?

He also mainly focused on WOE for individuals who have to lose weight. What about those individuals who suffer from modern civilization diseases / are at goal?

As for “dogma”, “us versus them”, absolutely that is ZIOH. It also illustrates what someone else has commented on this blog: the DYSFUNCTIONAL relationship with food. Orthorexia etc. But in all fairness, you get that with low-fat-low-cal-high-carb preachers too.

Has Anthony perhaps ignored the maintenance part of a WOE?In my personal life I’ve yet to see an individual who has followed a low-fat-low-cal-high-carb diet to lose weight, to MAINTAIN their new weight by continuing to follow their new WOE. I have never seen it happen. However, I personally know of many people who succesfully have lost weight and who succesfully maintain on low-carb for a lifetime!

When I tried low-fat, and even the diet recommended to diabetics (how pathetic this one is!!), I was irritated, moody, fatigued, lethargic, depressed, anxious and my blood sugar was out-of-control. Did I sleep “well”? Oh yes, I could sleep day and night, no problem. In fact, I only wanted to sleep and do nothing else. On my ketogenic diet on the other hand, I can sleep for 5-6 hours and feel completely refreshed. I have lots of energy, my moods are stable etc. because my blood sugar level is normal and stable. It’s not necessary for me to go ZC to get this result (in fact, ZC proved to be disastrous FOR ME), but I have to stay below 20g (at max) per day. Atkins also gives me healthy cholesterol levels and great relief from a myriad of other illnesses, diseases and general bad reactions from some foods.

He rightfully points out that Dr. Atkins supported taking supplements – no issue here as in general taking supplements is supported by low-fat-high-carb doctors too. But he should have expanded more on low-carb/ZC gurus who DON’T support taking supplements.

I would also like Anthony to tell me what nutritional value I’m supposed to be getting from eating refined carbs. It’s sad that he attacked Dr. Atkins. He’s been the “target” for so many years, which possibly illustrates that Anthony just took the easy road which is quite disappointing.

So in conclusion, Anthony IMO went to great lengths by selectively using “examples” of why low-carb is bad for you. Just like many people go to great lengths by selectively using “examples” of why low-fat-high-carb is bad for you. Is Anthony therefore perhaps the same as the people he’s attacking in his article? Hmmm…

Those studies he mentions in his blog are rediculous. Who eats 600-800 calories a day and maintains their sanity? Give me a break. Who cares if they were done under medical conditions. The caloric intake was the issue, not the ketosis.

Some of the ZIOH members are eating that little, Visitor.

Some of the ZIOH members are eating that little, Visitor.

Really? This is Kimkins-level dieting. It’s dangerous, as all of the “Ducks” who followed the saga on Low Carb Friends well know. Do they talk about SNATT (Slightly Nauseous All The Time) helping them keep hunger under control?

This is what I’ve been saying all along. ZIOH(CW)=Kimkins(HD)=Dangerous=Narcissism=?

As for SNATT. Try ENATT (Extremely Nauseous All of The Time). Depending, of course, on when you join ZIOH because the “menu” seems to change quite often…

I don’t usually read of people there feeling nauseous, because they are “keto-adapted”, supposedly. I do think some are functioning on low calories, especially if they are eating only once a day. However, that happened all of the time back on the Low Carb Friends board when people were doing all forms of LC and VLC. It’s not just a ZIOH thing. Sadly, I just don’t see the point of going to that extreme to lose weight, and this is coming from someone on a weight loss journey.

They don’t talk about SNATT, Stargazey, and don’t specifically call it out as a goal like Kimkins did. But ZIOH’s version of ZC is to eat only when hungry. This isn’t intended as a means of reducing calories directly, but as a “get exactly what you need by listening to your body” thing. I’m paraphrasing.

However, as we all know if you reduce your carbohydrate intake enough then your appetite is significantly reduced. Some people there have gone down to one meal per day. Calorie level would vary widely depending on choice & quantity of meat. Some could be getting 1500 calories from a good sized ribeye but many are eating 80/20 ground beef or even chicken.

The Leader’s latest advice:
“As much as we discourage it, there is no doubt that lean meat certainly brings on weight loss. We have our Kimkins experiences for proof. People did indeed lose weight. However, their major failure was that they ignored the demands for fat that their bodies made. There is no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. So I think it’s a good way to go and not only that, it was precisely the thing that Stefansson wrote about. Start with the fat and then eat more lean. In this case, it might be prudent to begin with the lean and only add the fat as your appetite dictates.”

“So I think it’s a good way to go and not only that, it was precisely the thing that Stefansson wrote about. Start with the fat and then eat more lean. In this case, it might be prudent to begin with the lean and only add the fat as your appetite dictates.”

That made my head hurt.

WTF??

Mariasol, is it at all possible for you to provide me with a link to the latest advice from CW, please?

The quote is from Carolina’s journal
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=1124&page=532

Looks like Carolina has finally come to her senses and said bye-bye to the cult!

She’s actually decided to leave for awhile. They all started attacking her for exercising.

It looks like Carolina has had enough of the hounding. Good for her. I hope that she can adjust her plan in a way that works great for her body and her life. She’s invested a whole lot in ZIOH – I’m sure she could really use some support right now.

There were a lot of strange twists in that thread. First saying that she ate too much. Then saying she ate too little. Then requesting verfication of changes on the scale. The same scale she threw away almost a year ago and they all applauded that decision then.

Good for her that she left. But she wasn’t given much of a choice. CW: “Carolina, if you choose to go this route of under-eating and strenuous exercise, you will not be welcome to do this here.”

I just re-read Carolina’s last post. She said some really wise things, but this one was the best, “However, there are too many outside voices blaring at me, keeping me from listening to myself from the inside.”

She’s going to be OK.

A long time member, Susan, is also stepping away from the board. She seems to have been a voice of reason. There aren’t many left who fit that description.

Nah, Carolina has taken a break before. The first time it was over exercise as well. Talk about going in circles! Hopefully she will go where there is real discussion on what might help her, not the same old (useless) song and dance. If she breaks long enough, then perhaps. But she has become too sheepish in these recent months imho. It has been sad to witness.

That’s a discouraging thought, Satya. If she’s taking a break, she’ll be breaking the journaling rule. If she’s restricting food (or overeating, depending on who’s talking), and exercising regularly, and talking about supplements, she isn’t ZC enough to be a member. I guess Chuck’s counting on your being right – he hasn’t bothered to unregister her yet.I’m not sure how he can let open defiance like that rest, but maybe he thinks he’s still in control.

Wow. That’s 5 gone in 2 days for Charlie. Good for them. Maybe there’s hope for some of them yet. It looks like Margot is taking over Suzanne’s spot as Charles’ pit bull. Attacking Carolina the way she did. So hypocritical. Given her own history you know without a doubt if she was still overweight herself there is no way she wouldn’t be trying everything under the sun to get thin.

Another non-obese forum staff member has stopped by Carolina’s journal to tell her she is wrong to be upset that after a YEAR of ZC she’s still obese and hasn’t made an progress on that. How can they tell her that continuing to do what isn’t working is the only right answer for her? Yet they tell her that exercising didn’t work before so why would she try it again. They only have hammers… so everything’s gotta be a nail I guess.

Susan has left too…

And so has Caroline…

CW’s last post in her thread (Caroline also mentioned Satya and seaweed):

“Seaweed, Seriously? What a strange day. That’s three and it’s not even 11:00 E.S.T. So sad.”

Yup. Three long-time members left in one morning. No idea why CW is feeling sad, as he said numerous times he didn’t care for the amount of followers he has on ZIOH.

And so has Chloe…

“I still have low iron (apparently my eating meat does not matter), low blood pressure and low potassium, magnesium, vit D”

And so has Christopher…

And so has Howard…

http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=2755&page=7

ad so have i but what’s the point of all this?

I got reamed for talking about how much I love weightlifting and how it was my sport. Well, who looks better? Women who lift, or women who don’t? I can do ZC and be a lifter; I don’t give a damn what CW thinks.

BTW, I eat one meal a day and do just fine. One meal a day is not a disease or restriction. It is a preference.

Mallory I believe “the point” has been explained and explored in depth already.

Wasn’t the ZC prescription, as written by Dr. Washington and the Mods, to sit on one’s derriere while the weight drops off and the body reshapes itself?

Now according to a Mod in Caro’s journal, it IS acceptable to exercise during the active weight loss phase. Poor Margot didn’t get that memo before she rushed in to paint the journal with an unbecoming shade of Self Righteous Indignation.

They should rename the site Cirque du ZIOH with all the contortions going on in that one thread alone.

ZC is not sustainable for the vast majority. I think it was “The Bear” who actually said this, too. If you’ve been exposed to eating a variety of foods, enjoyed the textures, tastes, and nuances you’re going to fine ZC dull. Now, it is true that eating for pleasure may not be a biological need, but is a psychosocial part of our human condition.

Are carbs necessary for human health? No. Are they enjoyable and do they add variety/spice to life? Yes. Can we find variety and spice elsewhere like relationships, hobbies, educational pursuits? Yes. Seems like moderation to the level your body can operate optimally is a personal choice based on observation and knowledge.

ZIOH is not about CW. It’s about people using their minds to do what is best for them. If people don’t like their online relationships at ZIOH then leave and do your thing somewhere else. If you bear your soul on a public forum, be ready to take heat. Your probably demonstrating poor judgment be bearing your soul to people you truly don’t know.

“ZIOH is not about CW”

Did anybody tell him that?

ZC isn’t about CW, but ZIOH is absolutely and singularly about CW!

I find this guy CW absolutely unbelievable in what he seems to be telling people. I was just reading about Kzantal – hoping to read that his health had improved and CW actually tells him that eating fatty meat with vegetables is a ‘lethal combination’!!!!!! This guy is beyond sanity. Poor Martin over there – I think he left after getting really high triglyceride readings and also was told he was on the way to developing gout. It wouldn’t be so bad – stuff like that happens all the time for whatever reasons, low carb/zc or not, but to have that kind of response from CW is just crazy. Since when did eating veggies + fat = lethal? I do it all the time and am in great shape.

Loopers. It depends on the veggies. LC (e.g. green leafy) or potatoes, corn, etc? Why do people take CW so seriously. He’s just a guy. Take him or leave him. What’s the big deal?

“Take him or leave him. What’s the big deal?”

The big deal is that CW (and his chosen few) mock, bully, and belittle others who in many cases are desperate to lose weight and/or gain health benefits from ZC. He picks and chooses from day to day what he deems to be allowed ZC behavior and people are forced to either do it his (ever changing) way or get out.

This is a big deal because like I said many people are desperate to lose weight and many times that desperation leads them to put blind faith into others who seem to be more successful.

His control issues need to be highlighted so that hopefully people will think about who they are blindly trusting with their health.

CW and the rest of them spent MONTHS mocking and belittling Jimmy Moore’s food/body size (and even his wife’s clothes, looks and size) all while claiming it was for this same type of ‘better good’.

For any of them to claim that we are now crossing a line in pointing out their very real and dangerous behavior is just plain hypocritical.

Bravo, Anonymous above. That is exactly the big deal about Charles Washington. He preys on very vulnerable people and he and his minions do psychological harm to them. I think the open discussion on this blog may have given some members the courage to speak up and air their doubts, and even leave when they realize how despotic CW is. There certainly has been a large outflow of people ever since Katelyn was mauled and people started coming here to talk about what was really going on at ZIOH.

mariasol, thank you for providing this open forum. It seems to really be having an impact. And thanks to the brave souls who have come here to open up about what happened to them. Anyone googling ZIOH will find this blog and at least be provided with another point of view before they get sucked in.

In fact, it might be good to include “ZIOH,” “Zeroing in on Health,” “ZC,” “zero carb” and “Charles Washington” in posts often to be sure this blog turns up in search engines.

But, I don’t see Jimmy Moore with a blog dedicated to mocking, belittling, and degrading them back. Seems Jimmy Moore has chosen to take the higher ground. Why do you choose to engage in the same behavior you wag your finger at? If you really think what is going on is dangerous or illegal why not ask the proper authorities to look into it and save the innocent?

If you really think what is going on is dangerous or illegal why not ask the proper authorities to look into it and save the innocent?

Been there. Done that. Could have bought the SNATT T-shirt.

If the Kimkins saga is any guide, it takes a lawyer and it takes years. In Kimmer’s case, she is still peddling her dangerous wares, even though the law is gradually closing in on her.

No, if word-of-mouth will suffice, that’s wonderful. Thanks, Mariasol, for putting these posts here.

This blog does not “engage in the same behavior.” Have you noticed Mariasol making hourly threats against the commenters? If our comments give ZIOH-ers the courage to leave the cult, I for one will be relieved. And now they even have a helpful, supportive community at Active Low Carber. All they will be missing is the abuse.

I’m sitting here eating some fatty beef and spinach. I’m going to die anytime now…

Speaking of threats, there are people at ZIOH who say they have been threatened by ‘us’. I’d like to see links, because I find it hard to believe. I sure hope that didn’t happen. If it didn’t happen, then talking like it did is just more dramatic manipulation and fits the cult theory.

I was actually there for the Jimmy Moore threads over at ZIOH for a while. I honestly thought (think) that Jimmy sabotages his diet daily, and rewrites history. He learns stuff and then unlearns it when it doesn’t allow him to eat whatever he wants. I think he’s an awful, awful example for lowcarb. I think he lies, expecially to himself and to market himself. I didn’t support attacks against his religion, appearance, his wife or his wife’s health. It was awful what went on over there – the personal attacks were sickening.

Jimmy is only hurting himself, but ZIOH hurts many people with their cruelty. I’m not saying all people there are bad, but there is a lot of horrible treatment there.

I’m amused that Chuck no longer kicks people in the butt on the way out the door now. At least one thing has gotten better with more scrutiny!

OhYeahBabe, I too went over to ZIOH primarily for the analysis of Jimmy Moore. He has been a mystery wrapped in an enigma for me, and the group analysis helped me understand that he is basically a marketer of products who lies to himself about many things. (I left when CW began to make absurd comments about the biochemistry of ZCing, and his response to my explanations was to attack me personally.)

There was a time when Jimmy was virtually the only low-carb blogger on the scene, and his promotion of low-carb products had the potential to lead many astray. Now we have lots of blogs, and a whole new community of paleo eaters. I don’t endorse or condemn paleo eating, by the way, but they are having a great influence on getting people back to whole, unprocessed foods.

“Speaking of threats, there are people at ZIOH who say they have been threatened by ‘us’. ”

I have an idea where that’s coming from… I’ve also seen Suzanne saying we are “stalking” her. Suzanne, get over yourself already! Do you even know what “stalking” means?

There are a various comments in journals but as I can not search the site, they are not easy to find.
Suzanne commented on the “threat” towards her family in the first post in her new journal:
http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=3031

ETA. This comment ended up in the wrong place. It was a response to a comment on my previous blog post.

Hi, a few comments. I’ve seen comments on ZIOH about stalking and harassment, but none mentioned this blog by name. If you think it was somehow implied (who else could it be?), a few thoughts:
1. Get over yourself

2. The ZIOH registration process was retweaked, as people were registering, getting the questionnaire (and ignoring it), and while their account was still pending they sent hateful messages to the mods. I’d like to think no one in this discussion would do such things, so that has at least one other hate group as a candidate.

Around the time of Katelyn’s departure things got rather emotional, and I expect there are probably a few loose canons rolling around.

I’ve heard talk here about people acting as “sleepers” on ZIOH, and registering and sticking around long enough to get access to the social threads (and chat?) and then doing a “hit-and-run.” Please don’t. Really. There’s nothing I’d consider terribly juicy in there; it’s mostly people trying to have a discussion without someone looking over the shoulder.

Chat might be juicier; I’ve only been there once and it was more depressing. Discussions of “SK” and her enablers, which I thought was uncalled for. But again, some people would like to have a private space and have taken explicit steps to try to keep random people out. It reminds me of an event when I was an adolescent learning how to be an adult. There was a conversation about which I was curious and was openly eavesdropping. Then they leaned closer and dropped to a whisper, and I approached to hear better–and got called on it. They obviously wanted to exclude me, and it was rude to try to get around it. Twentysome years later I still remember, and think it’s a good lesson.

To head off the “if you didn’t have anything to hide…” responses, how many of you were unhappy about various Patriot Act provisions? Do you close the door when you use the bathroom? A desire for privacy and to have conversations that exclude certain people seems fairly innate.

By the way, if you’re trying to search the ZIOH site for a word like “threat,” you don’t have to be a member and can just use google. Go to google.com and type:
site:zeroinginonhealth.com threat

and all of the messages containing the word “threat” will appear. Advanced options let you select date ranges, and you can tweak the keywords to your heart’s content. You don’t even have to wait 30 seconds in between searches.

You can do other neat stuff with site:, such as
site:.com only considers sites with a .com
-site:.com ignores all sites that are .coms
you can use other suffixes like .gov, .edu, .uk, etc.

joe

I haven’t written in awhile mostly because I’ve been rather busy–not that that’s bad. Thanks for the well wishes in my exchange with Charles. I was a bit disappointed in the result, but not for the reasons listed here, more for the tone of the reply. My goal was (truly) to have a serious discussion. Also, I see what someone (Maria?) mentioned earlier about dogma at ZIOH changing over time. In some ways that’s good; as we acquire new data our beliefs probably need to change. What seems less good is the sense of certainty. I try not to take hypotheses too seriously, especially my own.

I decided to try some organ meat for the first time. If you’re debating trying the US Wellness pet food (10% organ meat), don’t do it. I cooked it to well done, but my stomach was not happy for about 36 hours afterwards (felt very nauseous). To be fair to US Wellness, their pet food is labeled “not for human consumption.” Take the warning seriously. My cats have done just fine with it, even raw.

Also, Joe on zioh, here, and ALC (JoeB2) are all the same guy. Although I’m not on ALC anymore, as my account was suspended for reasons unspecified. I went through the procedure to get it reactivated and they didn’t respond. I hadn’t noticed that I was such a negative influence, but that’s some number of minutes per day of my life that I got back. Also, I get the feeling the mods don’t exactly like carnivores there. They’ve been “talking about” a carnivore/zc subforum for how long? Last September the discussion was already in progress and more requests for a zc subforum were explicitly not desired. I don’t know if it’s because carnivores don’t buy a lot of LC “product” (upsets the advertisers), if there’s some inherent distaste for the dietary plan amongst the mods, or if they fear looking too extreme by explicitly including such folks. I have a hard time coming up with a happy reason.

It’s easy to mock Charles, but he has put together the best carnivore forum–at least that I’m aware of. I’m certainly watching the dirtycarnivore site, and look forward to learning more about traditional carnivore foods.

joe

Joe, it was the tone in the posts that bothered me as well. It is clear that opinions differing from CW’s are not welcome on ZIOH.

Satya added a forum to the dirtycarnivore site and most of the ALCers/ex-ZIOHers are hanging out there: http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/

Regarding CW’s “tone,” I think this quote from Tooter’s journal is very telling. Granted, this argument was about the use of spaces in posts, but I think CW’s attitude is valid for diet related discussions as well.

“We’re not two equals viewing the situation differently. This is moderator and member. One is entitled to view the situation a particular way and one is obliged to try to reconcile their view of the situation with that of the person in authority. Your reasoning doesn’t really matter in this situation because you’re not a moderator.”

Joe, I had forgotten about the situation where people were using the sign up form to beat up on moderators over there. I bet you are right about that being the source of Suzanne’s concern. That’s been fixed, so I hope Suzanne is resting easier now. Cyber bullying isn’t OK.

Mariasol, thanks for the link to the forum site, I’d missed that

Nod, I’d seen the Tooter discussion. I scratched my head over that one until realizing that CW has worked in very hierarchical professions in his career: law and military. Lots of jobs have bosses or people in power; few jobs have people with the power to place you under arrest. In fact, I suspect those are the only two, and are also two of the most hierarchical professions. However, I suspect many forums operate in a similar manner (“we’re the mods, accept it and don’t argue with us”), but are just less direct about. Read over the forum rules for ALC sometime. But yeah, definitely a high dose of control.

joe

wow can I brain leak Marisol?

first Vit A

Joe I hope you were not serious about eating that cat food as the vitamin A cats need is about 10 times the safety level for humans. Vit A is a fat stored vitamim. Animals in the polar region who are higher up in the food chain have huge vit A stored aquired from the animals they ate and the animals and plants those fish and animals ate.Feeding the liver to dogs is deadly for the dogs and for the folk eating it tooif vast amounts are consumed. One whole polar expedition lost all the dogs and the members became ill from Vit A posioning because they were unaware of this issue and thought they were giving the dogs the best part of the kill.

That said that Vit A info does not trasnlate to the plains indians nor the Massi nor any other group eating grass feed beef as the beef are vegetarians and didn’t consume animals moving up the food chain to aquire more and more A.

And those eating grain feed beef should examine the nutritional studies of the vits and minerals lost by that type of diet for the meat that will be the substance of life.
There are absolutely no historical cultures that consumed grain feed proteins and fats as their primary diet. None. TH ZIOH folk are the lab rats in the grainfedd beef and water diet experiment. it would be nice if CW would have blood work done at least yrly to document the alleged health achievable by his diet.

Next the CW B12 and scurvy wisdom.
low B12 can cause a lowering of the blood vit C levels so those low in B12 will be low in C and could get scurvey that would not be cured by just adding more C to the diet.

However not all folk who have scurvey have low vit B12 so giving B12 to those who are not deficient will not have any effect on their C levles.

it is another case of CW not understanding what he read.

there is a study published in 2002 done on the inuit who actually eat the native historic diet and in it the elders were complaining that not as much organ meat is currently eatten. That isn’t some ZIOH detractor says that. That is members of the inuit who still eat their historic diet saying that. If they didn’t eat organs in days gone by why would the elderly complain about not having it to eat now?

iron
those who didn’t absorb enough iron on their ZIOH diet and it is a known fact that many females do not absorb enough iron even on iron rich diets will need supplements to improve their iron absorption. that is a fact of life. iron absorption is added by Vit C and magnesium.

Precursor of vit C that can be liver converted to Vit C does exist in animal proteins but it isn’t Vit C in the intestines where it is needed as VitC to absorb that iron.

intestinal flora
I saw a post on ZIOH about members actually planning to kill their healthy gut bacteria since they aren’t eating plants and therefore don’t need them.

I hope some educated admin or mod tells them that is a horrible idea since members aren’t allowed to post if they under 6 months in duration.
the healthy gut flora maintain the intestinal pH to the point that yeast can’t multiply and grow killing the bacteria provides a habitate for yeasts to grow.

Some of those healthy bacteria arer also the major source of vitamin K which assists in blood clotting properly. Since dark green leafy veggies the primary dietary source of that V isn’t being consumed nor is fresh cow blood being drunk as ther massi do the death of the primary source of this Vit could lead to some bleeding issues for ZIOH folk.

Plains indians ate ZC

The plains indians according to Lewis and Clark dug praire turnips and followed the buffalo. they also ate many berries,and other veggies. They even made a fried bread made from a flour they produced from the tubers they dug. There is a wonderful site on the historic eating of the plains indians

Berries were mixed into the pemmican of the plains indians. The thinking it was 50% fat meat could be that the observers were not the makers much like the Spainards who took corn back to Europe without knowing how the women treated the corn with lye to make the protein accessible for digetion. Many EU folk suffered malnutrtion eating corn as their primary grain without that knowledge.

Just as anybody reading Steffanson’s later works without having read his early works would not know that he decided fish was meat and would from the time of his days with the inuits call fish meat. Seeing him saying that ate meat primarily can be misleading without knowing that.

Exercise
CW for some strange reason tells his ZIOH folk not to exercise till the reach goal weight. Based on CW’s running while losing own example this seems absurd.
Possible he misread Steffanson as would not be the first time he did that and didn’t check on that they did no exercise statements of Steffanson for the Bellvue experiment to see exactly what they did do.
What CW fails to grasp is that the 2 men walked daily an average of 5 miles. Since back in the 20s walking wasn’t exercise Steffanson’s statements would not be the same as today when walking 5 miles is considered exercise.

Both men lost weight during the yr too.

more info CW seems to be lacking.

iodine

the goiter fixed by iodine containing salt was not created by the vegetables the folk ate. It was caused by a lack of iodine in the vegetables because the soil in the region lacked iodine for the veggies to absorb and transfer to the people. with todays modern transportation folk in the “goiter belt” can eat fresh veggies from other parts of the countery and obtain that needed iodine.

the inuit get all the iodine they need from the high iodine in the foods they eat that were aquired from the foods the food ate.

salt
some people are genetically sodium retainers and some are sodium secreters. Those who are secreters will aways no matter what diet they are on need additional sources of sodium in their diet. Those who are retainers will not need as much sodium in their diets and can get highblood pressure from too much sodium in their diet.
it is very possible CW is a retainer and therefore would not need as much sodium as a secreter or his beef is injected with a sodium solution in the preparation before it arrives at market so it will be moist when eatten.
Inuits got all the sodium they needed from the sea food they ate.

2BIG, I know about vitamin A toxicity. The meat was 5% liver and 5% heart or lung (forget which). I ground through the math for beef liver, and wound up with a maximum human weekly dosage of 4 pounds of their pet food (equivalent to about 3oz of beef liver). I wasn’t planning on eating it as my primary meal. Yikes! Good idea to put that caution out there though.

“That is members of the inuit who still eat their historic diet saying that. If they didn’t eat organs in days gone by why would the elderly complain about not having it to eat now?” Well, it good be a case of elders yearning for the ‘good old days.’ Reminds of a quote that went something like ‘The youth of today are neglectful of their responsibilities, slothful, and unwilling to exert their minds.’ It was attributed to Socrates

“I hope some educated admin or mod tells them that is a horrible idea since members aren’t allowed to post if they under 6 months in duration.” Yes, they can.

With respect to exercise, I’m with you that walking sounds safe. When I was morbidly obese I had doctors asking what aerobic exercise I was doing while losing weight. If I’d said I was in an aerobics class I’ll give good odds they would have beamed approvingly. Compared to that, and to folks such as marathoners, CW sounds downright sensible, and if I had to pick a side it would be his. Mercifully, we don’t have to pick one. Weight training while obese doesn’t seem terribly dangerous, nor does walking. Both are probably beneficial.

joe

I got the impression that CW changed his stand on exercise based on the ED people they had there. I can agree that overtraining is not good, especially if you use it to further reduce your calories.

But why would the same rule apply to non-ED people? Why would they need to wait until they are at their “regulated” weight before exercise is allowed? And then they should exercise only in the form of a sport?

I enjoy working with weights (well, sort of) and getting stronger. I challenge myself to increase the weights, number of push-ups, etc. Why isn’t such a challenge equally valid as trying to beat some time when you run a half-marathon?

“I’ve heard talk here about people acting as “sleepers” on ZIOH, and registering and sticking around long enough to get access to the social threads (and chat?) and then doing a “hit-and-run.” Please don’t. Really. There’s nothing I’d consider terribly juicy in there; it’s mostly people trying to have a discussion without someone looking over the shoulder.”

I guess this comment was directed at me. If so, PLEASE, it was not about getting “juicy” details at all. Read my comment again.

It was about sending pm’s to members with links to this blog, the ZC thread on ALC and Satya’s site. CW keeps his members isolated by deleting these links in posts.

“CW keeps his members isolated”

The whole world is against us… Nobody understands you like we do…

Kimmer did the same thing. She monitored private messages, too.

Satya, best wishes for the new Dirty Carnivore forum! I read some of the new member intros and was struck by how happy people are to have found your forum and their friends. Looks like it’s going to be a great place. Thank you for all the work you’ve put into it. I posted a link to it on my blog.

Anti_Zioh_Cult,

Sorry for misstating your motives. I truly thought by “hit and run” you meant get access to the social forum and chat room and spill the proverbial beans. I was confused since even new members can PM, so didn’t see why you’d need to hang around (to gain cred, now I get it).

Trying to talk others into joining someplace else? Not my cup of tea, but if it’s yours have at it

joe

Carolina posted on her blog today (Feb. 8/10):

http://onesteakatatime.blogspot.com/2010/02/zero-carb-is-not-magic-bullet.html

Now we have yet another change in position from CW.

Re: eating more than once or twice a day and/or eating only when truly hungry. CW’s latest stance:

“…If you need to schedule it? So be it.

I have no argument against this.”

http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=1124&pid=196465#pid196465

SO, they ran Katelyn off for eating at a scheduled time because that wasn’t true ZC as defined by him but now not even a month later he has no problem with it?

This blog has been a dose of reality in the last several months, for me anyway. I owe much to people like OYB, mariasols, Dr. Kurt Harris, stargazey and others who helped me break free from the zc dogma. I am so thankful to these efforts and will continue to follow them.

Thank you for well wishes and all. There was a need, and we will fill it. With much help, time, patience and maybe some sleep. Everyone is, of course, welcome. But this will not be ad hominem central. BTDT. So many just want a place to share without judgment from on high. Amen.

“Trying to talk others into joining someplace else? Not my cup of tea, but if it’s yours have at it”

No, it’s about making people aware of what’s going on on the outside. When you get sucked in at ZIOH, it’s difficult to distinguish between gospel and truth/reality.

“Carolina posted on her blog today (Feb. 8/10):”

I tried to post a comment on there because I have a solution for her, but her blog doesn’t allow anonymous comments

AZC, you can create an account. That’s the best way to make sure other people don’t post comments as you anyway.

@ Satya–Thanks! Your new blog forum sounds like a good place to be. I’ve added it to my Favorites.

@ 2BIG–All that information was great! I knew about some of it in a general way, but having you put it all together was very helpful. But because I’m a natural-born skeptic, can you provide some links to back up your points? Thanks in advance.

@Anti_ZIOH_Cult–Could you post your comment for Carolina here? I for one would be very interested to hear your solution. And maybe one of us who can post under a name can quote you at Carolina’s blog.

Anti_Zioh,

I changed the settings. I’m a new blogger and had no idea that blocking anonymous comments was an option. I had just left it in the default setting.

Try posting your comment now.

Carolina, for being a new blogger you are doing a great job! I knew you could write (from reading your posts on ZIOH) but you have a really nice layout too.

Best wishes to you, Carolina! I hope you can tweak your way to the success you want to have!

Carolina, thanks for removing the glitch I’ve now posted a comment in your journal.

Best wishes and SO glad you got out of ZIOH!

Not “journal”, I meant “blog”. Sorry!

The discussions on ZIOH are even more ridiculous than usual. 10-15 grams of pure 99% cocoa (not chocolate, cocoa) results in a member being unregistered. What about the mustard Suzanne used to put on her ground beef? I didn’t see anybody complaining about that.

Mariasol I also saw The Leader saying that 99% cocoa is dangerous. Clearly he is completely uneducated on the health benefits of the cocoa bean! But I’ve seen him having no issues with alcohol! No surprises here…

stargazer which part do you want studies for? the grain feed beef? the B12 effecting Vit C blood levels? the iodine? the iron? the exercise by the bellevue study folk? the fish are meat by Steffansson?
tell me what you want so i don’t spam Marisol’s blog

Hola!

I dig CW because he brought me into the world of ZC.

Good shit here though. Different points of view can only improve ZC for everyone.

I make an honest attempt at showing the positives and negatives of ZC on my site. Hopefully it will be a valuable resource for those interested years down the line.

thanks Mariasol, that member with the 99% chocolate was me. And I take oly 2.5 grams if and when I take it. I was always flabbergasted at their attitude towards alcohol – if a person does not get cravings of it, it is allowed – and that’s why I thought, let’s see what happens when I tell about the 99% terribly bitter chocolate which I take as a supplement now and then. And the result was as expected.

What I really find a clear sign that things are not right there, is that after deregistering me, CW reopened my journal and discussed me, without me being able to respond. Further he quoted totally out of context things from a personal email I sent to him – a big NONO in my book, too – and again, without giving me a chance to respond.
Other members took the opportunity to come in and talk about how stupid I was… apparently not having read the entire journal so without a clue of who I am and what I do and what I know.
I’m done with them, totally. I’m very pleased with other places where a person can post and discuss their diet in the proper respectful way.
I don’t expect weird stuff there like at ZIOH being told that because i am fat, nothing what I say about ZC has any value… ppfff!! I should have left a few months ago, when that happened.
I am sorry that CW is apparently so afraid to lose control that he acts like this and even sorrier for all the people who smile and nod and agree with the master.
Their turn will probably come, too…

As a final note I will say that I learnt a lot at ZIOH, most from the publications that are made available there, which still is great. For the rest I will stick to my version of ZC, happily losing weight at the moment, and applying what I know about my body.
A body is not a machine and what works for one, may very well not work for another. You must know your body and trust that you can give it what it needs when it needs it.

2BIG–I’d really a reference for each bullet point, if that’s possible. Just a list of links would be fine. I don’t need an explanation to go along with them, so a set of links shouldn’t take up too much space. Thanks!

2Big, better post your links one by one. The spam filter doesn’t like multiple links in a comment.

It is sad to see how ZIOH turns against its “loyal” members, and I agree it is out of fear of losing control. There is a lot of good information there, but it gets used incorrectly for the CW ZIOH mantras. People are figuring it out though.

Willeke, I’m sorry for your final experiences over there. It’s very sad. I’m also sorry that your journal and Carolina’s journals are being left open!

When I read the comments about the cocoa, I got the impression they were thinking of chocolate like it was an indulgence and not a very small dose of something very unenjoyable.

The comments about alcohol are baffling. They say alcohol has no carbs, but then talk about drinking wine which is clearly not carb free. How wine full of fruit sugars can be better than taking a supplement of any kind is just picking and choosing what behaviors they’ll enable and what they’ll shun.

Hello, I too am a ZIOH refugee. I can’t even read over there any longer because the rules keep changing.
One Moderator even admitted to having exercised 30 minutes a day doing light lifting and drinking wine a few times a week. Didn’t CW call someone an alcoholic because she imbibed 1x a month with a glass of wine? I think that same Moderator said she has a salad once a month, as well.
There are too many discrepancies at that forum to take it seriously and I do believe it will fall by the wayside in a matter of months. The smarter members have left. I hope ole Charlie keeps up the books that he has listed when the forum closes down and the last person shuts off the lights.

Thanks for all the great blogging on this horrendously sick man.

Olivia, I agree with you about the “rules” changing on a daily basis. I had to laugh at this post by a moderator today:

“Why do people get mad at US when THEY break the rules? How Silly.”

I think the trick there is to figure out what the rules du jour are and not mention it if you happen to be stretching the boundaries. As Willeke found out.

Olivia, I saw CW called someone an alcoholic recently. Lynne, I think? It was outrageous.

OYB, I don’t know if “outrageous” is a strong enough word for it. First, they force people to use their real name, and then they engage in character assassination in a post that is searchable in google. I saw no evidence that this particular accusation was true but nevertheless, things like that could end up affecting a person’s job application or something else in her REAL life. Unacceptable, in my opinion.

Lots more pruning going on at ZIOH. I wonder if fraternizing with dirty carnivores is against a new rule?

Just a warning to ZIOH members that want to stay members there and are also posting on other sites. You are being monitored and if you are found out to not be ZIOH-ZC, you will lose your membership.

CW: “we have standards and if people are elsewhere not living up to our standards, then we know what to do with them.”

http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=1807&pid=197272#pid197272

OYB, looks as if you are right. Apparently it is enough “cause” to just post on dirtycarnivore even if you don’t even mention ZIOH and even if you still follow the ZIOH ZC “rules.”

Wow, that is exactly what Kimmer did! That’s awfully paranoid, to ban people just for joining another forum – especially if they have not bad-mouthed ZIOH.

L. should contact Charles and require him to delete references to her. Kari was able to do that so it’s clearly doable.

Hi Willeke,

I usually buy Lindt 99%. Break off two blocks. Then add a drop of 0g saccharin liquid to sweeten it a bit, nuke in the microwave for 20 seconds and voila! You’ve got lovely melted chocolate to eat with a spoon I do this about once every couple of weeks, and like you, it has zero negative effect on me. Alcohol, on the other hand, is something I cannot consume anymore, which is fine because I don’t really care for it

What they are doing to Willeke and Carolina now is more despicable than normal. Leaving those journals open and having an attack fest is disgusting and is showing their true colors loud and clear.

Suzanne attacking Carolina now and saying how she thought she was a good person is so sad too. Suzanne herself posted a few months ago how helpful it was having Carolina in her dad’s NY apartment. (Of course after getting caught in a food related lie Suzanne deleted her journal so as not to have any more of her inconsistencies pointed out and I’m not sure it that post was in it or in Carolina’s)

Now that Carolina stood up for herself Suzanne is acting like Carolina took advantage of her. Ever the selfish, self centered one Suzanne can’t even bother to imagine how it must have felt to Carolina to be attacked by people she thought were her friends.

They go on and on about how they’ve all met each other and that makes their relationships different. So what they were all owed some sort of super respect because they’ve eaten together but Carolina didn’t deserve the same respect or someone there to have her back?

“You’re right. I DO see a major difference between chocolate and alcohol. I’m not a fan of either one, but a little alcohol hasn’t been shown to cause any problems for most people. Now, for someone like L., who was an alcoholic, you’re right and that’s one of the reasons she’s no longer here. None of us can seriously delude ourselves into believing that chocolate is a health food.” ~ CW

This statement is just so disturbing I don’t even have the energy to pull it apart.

“How many times have we said that the “carb count” is truly irrelevant. Just because a person can eat something and they have no cravings, does not make it ZC. I think the same about alcohol as well. If it doesn’t help, then what is the use for it?” ~ CW

And he follows it up with this statement. That man is sick! I actually want to grab that baby he’s holding in his hands!!

I apologize for editing two comments. I just don’t want the name of the “alcoholic” to show up in google.

Anonymous, I think there might have been more going on behind the scenes. I don’t see how Carolina is dishonest by declaring that she is going to exercise. Doing it and not admitting to it, yes, but not the other way around.

My reaction to Suzanne’s comment was that it was cult-like. A cult member can not accept that another one leaves and certainly will not stay friends outside the cult.

thanks Anti-ZIOH-cult, that’s exactly the brand I buy. And I take only one square at a time, only now and then, not even every week.
Of course I could have kept my mouth about that, but hey, if I can’t be open about what I’m eating, my whole journal would be a lie, and that’s just not me.

I’m not looking there anymore, there is so much lying going around there, yuck. What a pity!

I posted a new blog entry.

Whatever you choose to say here is your choice. Please don’t bring board-bashing to my blog.

http://onesteakatatime.blogspot.com/2010/02/in-defense-of-zero-carb.html

I’m OK with editing out L’s name, but I hope someone goes and tell’s L what’s been said about her so she can make CW rectify it. I don’t want to drag her back to a forum she has said goodbye to, but she may care that the accusation sits there like that.

I called Suzanne selfish a few posts up and I’m sorry for that. I do think her going after Carolina is uncalled for and her posts everywhere are of a very self centered nature but I have no way of knowing if she is selfish and since she seems like a doting and caring mother (which in itself in many ways is selfless) I apologize for that comment.

Carolina knows what happened and so do I. I am not stating it publically, but keep pushing me and I will. You might see things VERY differently if you knew the truth.
However, I am guessing Carolina does not really want her fans to know all the dirty details.

You’re right Suzanne. None of us knows what went on behind closed doors. But what was done out in the open was ugly and without knowing your side I feel bad for what it looks like she was put through.

But the personal stuff is none of our business and I’ve let my disgust with CW and his way of running things there extend to others (including you) and I shouldn’t have done that. I don’t like the tone of a lot of your posts but I don’t know you and so much ‘tone’ gets lost online I shouldn’t have allowed my dislike for that to form my opinion of you as a person. I apologize to you for that and for any stress my comments caused.

I would please appreciate if members of this blog would stop using me as an object lesson to bash ZIOH. I am not interested in engaging or enabling any further drama.

“Carolina knows what happened and so do I. I am not stating it publically, but keep pushing me and I will. You might see things VERY differently if you knew the truth.
However, I am guessing Carolina does not really want her fans to know all the dirty details.” ~ Suzanne

OK,herewith my reply to your post above, and it doesn’t relate to Carolina at all…

Suzanne knows what happened and so do I. I am not stating it publically, but keep pushing me and I will. In fact, I’m going to regardless. You might see things VERY differently if you knew the truth.
However, I am guessing Suzanne does not really want her fans to know all the dirty details.

Suzanne, have you seen Carolina’s blog? She doesn’t say one bad word about you. Yet, you felt yourself compelled to mention “dirty details”. No guessing who’s the better person here. But I guess you, Suzanne, are still busy with your behind-the-scenes activities.

To add to the above, I absolutely despise how Charles is putting private emails on the boards for everyone to see. It sickens me to no end and it shows ZERO integrity! And now Suzanne too is threatening to make private info public. No surprises here.

Anti_zioh_cult,
spill it. If you have something to say about me, say it. Then I will say my side and let the chips fall where they may.
And, she deleted the part where she called us ALL jackals, didn’t she. So, if I am going to be grouped together with all of ZIOH, I will group Carolina in with all the anti -ZIOH people and will fight this fight.
so, spill what you think you know about me, I am taking my son to school, but look forwarded to replying.

Hi, I think there’s been a few misinterpretations of what’s happening at ZIOH:

First, Willeke didn’t lose her membership for eating cocoa. She was unregistered because she asked to be, as she assumed that cocoa would cause a problem. Honestly, I’m not sure what would happen if she brought it up. To be clear, I am not defending posting a private email or leaving the journal open for additional comments.

Second, the part about “not living up to standards” does not refer to posting on the dirty carnivore page. Plenty of ZIOH folks do. Same with ALC. I read it as if people write on either of those places that they’ve added salad as part of their lifestyle, they can be booted from ZIOH. That’s been policy for awhile.

joe

I see that Suzanne is trying to muscle in over on the ZC threads at ALC now that everyone that matters has moved elsewhere.

@Anon Are you a drama whore or what? Suzanne has been posting about ZC since Nov ‘08. Long before the DC folks showed up at ALC. Get a life.

@Mariasol These ad hominem attacks do nothing to further your point about mistreatment by ZIOH of members. Who cares what Suzanne posts at ALC? I though the issue was ZIOH.

@Mariasol Yeah yeah I know I made an ad hominem attack and then complained about them lol!

As much as I dislike any “recruiting” to ZIOH, I don’t see anything wrong with the members posting on ALC. ALC really has no way of verifying the accuracy of posts so I would just hope their personal integrity keep them honest. For instance, not crediting ALL success to ZC when they did LC for years prior to that. Or, claiming to be ZC when they have a weekly LC meal. (The last example was a former ZIOH member. Perhaps he was unregistered when they found out about his weekly non-ZC meal.)

Suzanne has been at ALC for ages and if ALC doesn’t have an issue with her then it’s certainly her right to be there.

C’s and W’s journals are finally locked. Even if management thought topics needed further discussion, journals of ex-members wasn’t a great place to put it. It was different from how the journals of other ex-members had been handled, and wasn’t fair.

stargazer here is a pdf on grass vs grain feed beef with vits and minerals contained by each along with fat profiles
they have a long list of sites in their ref section you can get further info fromhttp://www.csuchico.edu/agr/grsfdbef/pdf/amberabbottgrassfedbeef.pdf

since the maissi drink cow blood they got much more vit a and beta caratone from that source. do you need a source for vits and minerals in cow blood. Charles credited the milk drinking with their A but the cow milk has less then 400 units per quart while the blood drinking has more then a days supply

Anon3, you are embarrassing yourself by your constant misuse of the term “ad hominem.” It’s very reminiscent of the pseudo-intellectualism of CW. For your edification, if you think the previous sentence was an ad hominem argument, you are wrong. Again.

From Wikipedia: “An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: “argument toward the person” or “argument against the person”) is an argument which links the validity of a premise to an irrelevant characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise”

http://journals.lww.com/epidem/Citation/2003/01000/Commentary__Salt,_Slavery_and_Survival_.29.aspx

they talk about how retaining sodium condition help slaves survive the ocean trip and site several studies about it while attempting to explain how it was not a racious study.

Carolina, I was on your side. However, I’ve today seen on another forum how you treat some people. I therefore no longer have any empathy for you.

goiter belt was actually discovered by docs at induction centers for GIs back in WWI any dictionary will supply you with the info about where it occurred and how it was caused by the locals eating iodine depleted veggies grown in iodine deleted soils.

cattle are actually given Iodine supplements because of some health issues low iodien cows face. inorder to not exceed the legal limit for iodine in their milk you can find many studies on the amount if iodine needed in feed lot supplementation.

ZIOH has lost a voice of reason, Erasmus. I found his posts there very respectful and they shouldn’t have been ground for becoming unregistered. But then, a forum Leader has the power to allow or deny access on a whim. However, abuse of this power often ends up with no members at all.

Here is the email that Erasmus sent me, posted with his permission:

“Just as an update on ZIOH series…

While a pain in the ass to The Leader, I broke no rules. I ate ZC. I ate ZC as defined by ZIOH. I journaled, though sparingly. My latest posts were in support, mild support of a few long time members that were booted out.I only
suggested looking at the big picture of it all. And most importantly, I suggested they keep it honest. I mean, his house, his rules. I get that. I support that. But it was, it seems, the last straw for me. So booted I was
without ever having broken a rule. Does this bother me? No. It is a toxic environment. I said, face to face at the LA meetup, that it was the most hateful board I have ever experienced. They didn’t get it. ZC to them is more
a question ZC purity to the current Leader based whim. So why did I stay?
Someone need to add a bit of a counterpoint to the increasingly insane definitions of ZC over there. There are others but they are few. Anyway, I’m toast and glad for it. It absolves me of any greater good obligations I may have felt. Feel free to read caroline and willeke’s threads to see what got me banned. Bear in mind this was a final straw. I have been posting similarly in the past. I leave it up to you to decide if banning was a fair thing to do.”

I have always posted on ACL. I briefly stopped posting because many of the ex ZIOH people were there and I did not want to step on their toes. It was their new home and I did not want them to be uncomfortable with me there. Since they have now started their own board, I returned to posting there.
I am still waiting to hear from ANTI_ZIOH what horrible crime I have committed. You continue to imply that I have done something truly terrible to you, but have yet to reveal what this horrible thing is or was. Please share.

Suzanne, it’s a little ironic that you threatened to reveal some dirty secret about Carolina but when the EXACT same words were used against you, you were upset by it.

I’m not interested in hearing what either of the allegations are. I’m just pointing out that you dished it.

2BIG, thanks for the references you’ve given so far. I have printed them out and will study them later tonight.

I don’t need a source for vitamins and minerals in cow blood, since it probably isn’t on anybody’s ZC food list. But I’d forgotten about that, and it’s a good reminder that milk and meat were not the only source of nutrients of animal origin for the Masai.

I do know about the goiter belt. I grew up there and remember taking iodine supplements at school before the advent of iodized salt. I also remember that salt blocks with trace nutrients were put out for cattle, which is probably why the cattle did not have goiter, but the people did.

That is not why I was upset , actually, I have no dirty little secret. Anti_Zioh had made a lot of threats to reveal something, but I really have no idea what it is or could be. I was upset cause she posted about having huge anger and hate towards me, that despite seeing see a tharapist, she could not let go of. Her words seems “off” to me.
I was also upset about being grouped in with all of ZIOH. I am my own person. I am not Charles, I have my own mind and make my own decisions, right or wrong.
And lastly (I think, lol), I am upset because I never started to post about zc to “trick” people. Or to prove that zc is the only way to eat. I post to help people, especially those who suffer from bulimia.
This entire blog paints me as this evil woman trying to con people.
I am a bulimic, a wife and a mother. I have no other motivation, but to help people. I will be the first one to tell poeple to quit zc, most people do not like it.

Comment by Anti_ZIOH_Cult on February 9, 2010 @ 2:45 am
“Carolina posted on her blog today (Feb. 8/10):”

I tried to post a comment on there because I have a solution for her, but her blog doesn’t allow anonymous comments

So why can you not come out of hiding and say what needs to be said?

Comment by OhYeahBabe on February 7, 2010 @ 4:51 pm
I honestly thought (think) that Jimmy sabotages his diet daily, and rewrites history. He learns stuff and then unlearns it when it doesn’t allow him to eat whatever he wants. I think he’s an awful, awful example for lowcarb. I think he lies, expecially to himself and to market himself.

Comment by Stargazey on February 7, 2010 @ 7:44 pm
OhYeahBabe, I too went over to ZIOH primarily for the analysis of Jimmy Moore. He has been a mystery wrapped in an enigma for me, and the group analysis helped me understand that he is basically a marketer of products who lies to himself about many things.
There was a time when Jimmy was virtually the only low-carb blogger on the scene, and his promotion of low-carb products had the potential to lead many astray.
***********

So it is wrong for ZIOH to criticize him, but alright for you to criticize him. Does this not mean you are doing the same thing you said was despicable for someone else to do?

Re: Suzanne
Yep, she’s been on ALC awhile and I found her to be a great contributor there.

anti_zioh, any chance you could tell us the horrible truth of Suzanne? From her journal
‘And I am sick of it, she will not even directly state this “horrible” thing I have done! If it is that bad, just say it. I hate people like that, too scared to really fight the fight.’

I think in poker terms she just said “call.” Your move.

joe

So it is wrong for ZIOH to criticize him, but alright for you to criticize him. Does this not mean you are doing the same thing you said was despicable for someone else to do?

I don’t remember saying it was despicable for ZIOH to criticize JM. Do you have a link?

Joe2, you cut some of the context of what I said regarding the Jimmy topic. Promoting himself as a diet success isn’t legitimate. But I said that I was against the PERSONAL attacks that I observed there. There was no reason to attack his appearance, his religion, his wife, and her appearance. It was vicious.

“Now we have yet another change in position from CW.

Re: eating more than once or twice a day and/or eating only when truly hungry. CW’s latest stance:

“…If you need to schedule it? So be it.

I have no argument against this.”

http://forum.zeroinginonhealth.com/showthread.php?tid=1124&pid=196465#pid196465

SO, they ran Katelyn off for eating at a scheduled time because that wasn’t true ZC as defined by him but now not even a month later he has no problem with it?”

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

“I am still waiting to hear from ANTI_ZIOH what horrible crime I have committed. You continue to imply that I have done something truly terrible to you, but have yet to reveal what this horrible thing is or was. Please share.” ~ Suzanne

I will do that when I’m ready and not when you demand it. I’m no longer under your command. I will also not do this on Mariasol’s blog. I will do this on a brand new anti-zioh-cult website. And you know very well who I am. And you know very well what you did, unless you did it to so many people that you simply cannot remember this one incident in particular. I have no time for you. I have no respect for you. I don’t buy your (yet again) new online persona. You’re not fooling me. I’m however glad that you have now implied that you were/are not worried about me slitting your throat, you were/are just worried about THE TRUTH coming out. And clearly you were/are so worried that you changed your entire online persona, deleted your journal, “unmod” yourself (lie) etc. So don’t tell me now that you’re not worried anymore. I have a copy of your old journal, I have screen shots of all your posts and pm’s, I’ve got your emails, I’ve got screen shots of you in the chat room etc. So perhaps you should start to worry again because your new profile isn’t going to fix anything.

There’s a big difference between criticize and emotional abuse, lying, making fun of innocent people in the mod forum, brainwashing people to do horrible things, being rude (Suzanne said either in someone else’s journal or her old/new one that she does this INTENTIONALLY), cause psychological harm and so on and so on.

I’m very happy about Erasmus’ banning, although of course if wasn’t fair. He did not belong there for reasons unrelated to his behavior or his WOE.

I have now waited 24 hours to hear my horrible crime. I am guessing you are looking for one or trying to make one up. Any reason you do not care to share with us what I have done wrong?

2BIG–I’ve read the article on grass fed vs. grain fed beef. Wow! What a difference in nutrient content!

Of course primitive peoples would have been eating grass fed animals. And of course people who supplement would be able to make up for the relative lack of nutrients in grain fed animals. But I can see that people who eat nothing but grain fed meat and who refuse to supplement are putting themselves at risk for nutritional deficiencies.

II think I have stopped laughing long enough to respond. “brainwashing?” really? You think I am that clever?
I really have no idea who you are, but I do know that your obsession with me is not normal. Do you not have a life at all? no husband or children? Not even a cat? Something to help you focus on something else besides me?
I am really not all that exciting.
I also have never changed my on line personality. I have never pretended to be anything other than who I am. I am not an overly sweet person, I am very direct and yes, I can be in rude. Never denied that.
You do realize that this collection of my PM’s, emails, journals, is NOT normal? Right, Please tell me you at least know that much.
II cannot imagine who I have treated so badly, however, I am guessing I was not as horrible as you may believe since you clearly have a weak gasp on reality.
You have never even met me! You really know noithing about me, even though you seem to have an entire scapbook on my life.

OhYeahBaby,
I sent JM a personal apology for my comments on his appearance and towards his wife. I do have deep regrets for my words during that time, they were immature and catty. I am not proud of what I said.

“I have now waited 24 hours to hear my horrible crime. I am guessing you are looking for one or trying to make one up. Any reason you do not care to share with us what I have done wrong?”

It’s very difficult,if not impossible to “make up” screen shots, emails etc. If you so please you can believe what you have typed above. I have no desire to argue with you. Refer to my previous comment.

Stargazey, if the people are only eating meat and no carbs, they apparently don’t need nutrients. Find a documented case anywhere of a person who suffered any specific nutrient deficiency who ate nothing but grain fed meat and water, nothing else, ever…

I think I’ve read too much Marin this week, LOL!

[Head slap!]

What was I thinking, OhYeahBabe? I forgot that if you eat no carbs and nothing but grain fed meat and water, Looney Tunes biochemistry kicks in and you don’t need nutrients any more. Thanks for setting me straight!!

Where are these emails? These screen shots?

Anti_ZIOH: “I’m very happy about Erasmus’ banning, although of course if wasn’t fair. He did not belong there for reasons unrelated to his behavior or his WOE.”

Do tell if you would? I’m curious about your standards for membership.

I really don’t get all of this drama. I’ve been a long time member of ZOIH from day 1, and have always understood that the website belongs to Charles and he gets to make the rules there. If people don’t like it, just leave and go somewhere else, no one is holding a gun to anyone’s head and forcing them to be part of that community. It’s an internet forum, not a prison camp.

I post on DC too now by the way. I think it’s great that there is another place to talk about ZC, and it’s even better that there are different standards where people who aren’t happy with ZOIH’s way of doing things can feel at home. Some people I enjoy chatting with very much are at both sites, and so I will continue to post at both sites (by the way, the ZIOH folks are aware that I have been posting at DC and I haven’t been threatened with banning )

I wish there were MORE places to talk to like minded people – there aren’t that many of us. I’d love to see more of us have a live-and-let-live attitude and stop worrying about what people we have decided to disassociate with are up to.

By the way, while I don’t know Suzanne well personally, I have always gotten the impression that though she can be pretty direct, she IS a helpful, caring person.

Suzanne, it was nice of you to apologize to Jimmy. It’s easy to get sucked in and carried away in a group that way, especially with moderators encouraging it.

I don’t know if you saw it, but I supported something you said on ALC. I would understand if you’re feeling persecuted right now, but from where I sit the issue is how people are treated at ZIOH. You have been a big part of that. I’ll admit that I don’t understand a person who acknowledges they are rude but doesn’t do anything about it, but I am not out to attack you personally if that’s how you feel.

LOL@Stargazey!!

I got unregistered over there. Last night I tried to support a member that is having powerful thoughts about carbs. I didn’t tell her to go eat carbs, but I did explain that I have gone VVLC and that not being mentally restricted to meat and water only has helped me to not take a head first dive off in to carb hell. Oh, and I admitted I ate 4 pickle slices last night.

This was followed with several pickle hating comments and some allusions to ice cream being a preferred choice if one were to stray from ZC.

Funny, cause I told that same member that she should go eat carbs and did not get in any trouble. I told her to go out and try VLC for a while and see if her cravings were any better or wprse. Why not try and compare?
OhYeahBaby, I never said I was not trying to be a better person or work on my character defects. I am 100% aware that I can be rude and too direct, but I am pretty sure we all have flaws we are working to improve, no?
I am expecting anti_ZIOH to be practically perfect cause she sure loves to sit in judgement.

LOL! If you want to see a website with a really nasty owner check this out: http://magicbus.myfreeforum.org/about1781.html

Apparently anyone with dual memberships in any LC forum has been given the boot by Dean/Cat.

Let’s hear some talk about his behavior.

I know Suzanne. I didn’t want to bring your post up here, figured you would if you wanted to. But I certainly noticed that it was OK for you to suggest exactly what I am doing…yet I get unregistered. Guess its cuz I AM doing it.

lol, Lisa! It is a zc board! Of course they are going to ask you to leave if you eat VLC. But, there are lots of great VLC and LC boards, you will be fine.
If Istarted to eat VLC again, I would have to leave too.

C just posted in my journal that he had an itchy finger and apolgized for closing my journal and removing me! I am very happy about that. Now I don’t feel like such a pariah.

Yes, its a ZC board…but why would I get removed if I am going back to VVLC in an effort to stay as close to ZC as I can and not throw in the towel? That is the part that upset me. I wasn’t asking for coddling, just admitting that I am mentally needing to take a step back in order to move forward.

Comment by Stargazey on February 11, 2010 @ 10:41 pm
So it is wrong for ZIOH to criticize him, but alright for “you” to criticize him. Does this not mean “you” are doing the same thing you said was despicable for someone else to do?

I don’t remember saying it was despicable for ZIOH to criticize JM. Do you have a link?
******
Sorry Stargazey I was using “you” collectively for this blog. Much was made of the people at ZIOH criticizing Jimmy while the same thing happened here

No offense intended for those who like it, but Magicbus is too crude for my taste. I like my hangouts to be more refined.

Joe2, you cut some of the context of what I said regarding the Jimmy topic. Promoting himself as a diet success isn’t legitimate. But I said that I was against the PERSONAL attacks that I observed there. There was no reason to attack his appearance, his religion, his wife, and her appearance. It was vicious.
****

You do not feel saying the following is attacking him personally? “He learns stuff and then unlearns it when it doesn’t allow him to eat whatever he wants. I think he’s an awful, awful example for lowcarb. I think he lies, expecially to himself and to market himself.”
Someone saying you lie is not a personal attack against you?

Well. Talk about bad behavior of some Magic Bus forum members recruiting people to go to DC. Is that forum any better than ZIOH with this kind of behavior?

“”I am both saddened and outraged at the many members who seem to have practically deserted the Bus for the shiny new forum down the road.

Lynne, it was me who told Cat about the PMs. I thought it was tacky and inappropriate that you would sneak around one forum to get people to go to another. If you thought it was ok to post on the Bus, why didn’t you just post something in a public thread?

If you all knew of people out there looking for somewhere to safely, openly discuss their carnivorous WOE with others, why didn’t any of you ask them to come here instead of joining them elsewhere? This is a great place…

I just don’t understand.”

Comment by Lisa W on February 12, 2010 @ 9:24 pm
C just posted in my journal that he had an itchy finger and apolgized for closing my journal and removing me! I am very happy about that. Now I don’t feel like such a pariah.

Yes, its a ZC board…but why would I get removed if I am going back to VVLC in an effort to stay as close to ZC as I can and not throw in the towel? That is the part that upset me. I wasn’t asking for coddling, just admitting that I am mentally needing to take a step back in order to move forward.
****

Looks like he also asked you to email him about it.

Good grief, did I really say “expecially”? My bad…

Looks like everyone was talking about how great ALC was but Joe said he was removed and Katelyn disappeared, so does everyone still think the same of it?

Comment by OhYeahBabe on February 12, 2010 @ 10:49 pm
Good grief, did I really say “expecially”? My bad…
***
The point is you called him a liar and make a big deal that someone else attacked him.

I once said “scrabbled eggs,” I believe you were the one to point that out as a sign of my “intelligence,” lol.

Comment by OhYeahBabe on February 12, 2010 @ 6:05 pm
Suzanne, it was nice of you to apologize to Jimmy. It’s easy to get sucked in and carried away in a group that way, especially with moderators encouraging it.

I don’t know if you saw it, but I supported something you said on ALC. I would understand if you’re feeling persecuted right now, but from where I sit the issue is how people are treated at ZIOH. You have been a big part of that. I’ll admit that I don’t understand a person who acknowledges they are rude but doesn’t do anything about it, but I am not out to attack you personally if that’s how you feel.
****

How people are treated at ZIOH is an issue, but you calling JM a liar must be consider courteous here. Alteast Suzanne had the guts to appologize unlike your pathetic attempt above.

I have an update on ALC. Awhile ago I went through the process to be reactivated but misread the protocol. I thought I’d get an email notification of a response and was waiting for such. One a lark I just went back and saw there was a response saying I could be reactivated (it shows up in a completely separate part of the forum). So I’m sticking with my view that ZC isn’t exactly welcome there (it takes *how* long exactly to create a subforum?), but I don’t think my treatment was related.

I’m still not happy about why my account was frozen, but at least I know why: a mod sent a rather obnoxious and condescending reply to a newcomer and I called her on it.

Who moderates the moderators? The best solution imo is to find a place where such musings don’t pop into your head.

joe

Joe#2, I did email him. Trace veggie consumption is a deal breaker. I am welcome to reapply once I am pure ZC.

Thanks for clarifying, Joe. Yes, questioning a mod’s action is not allowed.

Wow, Lisa. I didn’t expect that. I guess members will keep any deviation from “pure” ZC to themselves from now on. Way to encourage honesty.

Anti-ZIOH cult, you are INSANE! Suzanne is very direct and blunt; so am I. But you are very many cards short of a deck.

ZIOH is a ZC forum. If you are not ZC per their standards, you should leave. I eat entirely ZC and never slip up–ever–but I am not ZC per Charles’ definition, and it is his forum. I can practice my SUCCESSFUL ZC WOE on DC Forum.

And I’d love to see bikini pictures of some of you criticizing ZC WOE.

You don’t like my opinions. I get that. But what the heck does it have to do with my body size?

So that is why you cannot stand ZIOH – they demand picture proof! Nice call Katelyn! They’ve seen your ZC results and are jealous.

Joe#2, the problem is that there are lots of people who’ve done ZC per the ZIOH rules, and the bikini pictures only get worse. But ZIOH members aren’t allowed to discuss it. In order to remain, ZIOH members must pretend that the plan works even if it doesn’t.

Another problem is that CW has his own bizarre reading of GCBC, Stefansson and of biochemistry and physiology in general. Disagree with it, and there will be personal attacks and eventually a loss of membership. In order to remain, the members must pretend that CW’s versions of history and science are the correct ones.

I think enough truth has been told on Mariasol’s blog, and enough ZIOH members have seen it, that those who need to get away from the controlling atmosphere and wacky science at ZIOH have only themselves to blame if they stay there.

If they do stay, CW will get his narcissistic supply, they will get the satisfaction of being enablers, and everybody will gradually develop symptoms of poor nutrition. But in the meantime they will feel superior to the rest of us, and I guess that’s worth something.

It’s funny that if someone isn’t losing weight on ZC, ZIOH claims that ZC isn’t about weight loss, it’s about achieving health. But as soon as they feel threatened, they start calling people fat. CW does that all the time. I’m sad to see Katelyn stooping to that level. I thought she was more mature than that.

For the record, I believe in ZC for myself. But I’m not going to attack people who question it and cast aspersions on their body size.

“They’ve seen your ZC results and are jealous.”

“And I’d love to see bikini pictures of some of you criticizing ZC WOE.”

I’d put my close to 40 something year old bikini clad bod next to yours any time any place in real life but never on an internet blog. Some of us have serious jobs with serious bosses who wouldn’t find half naked internet pictures appropriate.

It’s just plain stupid, juvenile and whole bunch of other stuff to tell someone their opinion is wrong or worthless because they may or may not be as thin as you. Body size has absolutely nothing to do with the validity/worth of a persons opinions/thoughts/etc. Whether we are naturally blessed with the assets to fill out a bikini in ways you never will or we weigh 1000 pounds we do get to have an opinion on ZC and it’s no more or less important than yours.

(Just for the record people Katelyn has said many times that she loves her body and I think she looks fine for the body shape she’s going for. And I have no real problem with you Katelyn. I’ve defended you here multiple times but this isn’t the first time you’ve made a body size comment like this and I’m not going to ignore it here.)

“It’s just plain stupid, juvenile and whole bunch of other stuff to tell someone their opinion is wrong or worthless because they may or may not be as thin as you. Body size has absolutely nothing to do with the validity/worth of a persons opinions/thoughts/etc”

Amen.

Comment by Stargazey on February 13, 2010 @ 1:59 am
Joe#2, the problem is that there are lots of people who’ve done ZC per the ZIOH rules, and the bikini pictures only get worse. But ZIOH members aren’t allowed to discuss it. In order to remain, ZIOH members must pretend that the plan works even if it doesn’t.

****
From what I can tell there are people there who have not gotten the results they want in regards to weight loss, but they stay because of other benefits they have from ZC. No one has to pretend the plan works, but if you want to try a plan other than ZIOH’s they will say you can do it elsewhere.

Another problem is that CW has his own bizarre reading of GCBC, Stefansson and of biochemistry and physiology in general. Disagree with it, and there will be personal attacks and eventually a loss of membership. In order to remain, the members must pretend that CW’s versions of history and science are the correct ones.

*****
Once again it has been stated there they do not want to hear other opinions of how to do ZC. If you have documentation or can prove your argument put it on the table if on the other hand you simply keep saying people on ZC are going to end up with a nutrient deficiency and you never show proof to back up your statement you are not welcome.

I think enough truth has been told on Mariasol’s blog, and enough ZIOH members have seen it, that those who need to get away from the controlling atmosphere and wacky science at ZIOH have only themselves to blame if they stay there.

****
And everyone is free to leave anytime they want.

If they do stay, CW will get his narcissistic supply, they will get the satisfaction of being enablers, and everybody will gradually develop symptoms of poor nutrition. But in the meantime they will feel superior to the rest of us, and I guess that’s worth something.

****
And once again a charge that ZC will cause poor nutrition without any cases to back up the charge, and a personal attack that anyone staying at ZIOH feels they are superior to you.

Joe#2, my personal opinion is that it is dangerous to tell people that a diet of ground beef, and nothing else than ground beef, is healthy.

Yes, there is no proof that such a diet would lead to disaster as most people are not silly enough to attempt it.

And while I’m here, I’d like to ask Joe#2 why I (or anybody else for that matter) should be jealous of Katelyn.

Comment by Anonymous on February 13, 2010 @ 4:13 am
“They’ve seen your ZC results and are jealous.”

“And I’d love to see bikini pictures of some of you criticizing ZC WOE.”

I’d put my close to 40 something year old bikini clad bod next to yours any time any place in real life but never on an internet blog. Some of us have serious jobs with serious bosses who wouldn’t find half naked internet pictures appropriate.

****
So then post an appropriate full body pic showing that your 40 something non-zc body is as healthy and without nutrient deficiency as Katelyn’s or CW’s

It’s just plain stupid, juvenile and whole bunch of other stuff to tell someone their opinion is wrong or worthless because they may or may not be as thin as you. Body size has absolutely nothing to do with the validity/worth of a persons opinions/thoughts/etc. Whether we are naturally blessed with the assets to fill out a bikini in ways you never will or we weigh 1000 pounds we do get to have an opinion on ZC and it’s no more or less important than yours.

****
True, body size does not affect the validity of the argument and not everyone is going to be as thin as Katelyn. But if you weigh 1000 pounds (your # not mine, so don’t accuse me of saying you’re fat)and keep saying Katelyn and everyone at ZIOH are going to some day end up with a problem because that is your opinion and never show this deficiency; while the ZCers demonstrate good healh, then I will certainly continue to listen to the ZC crowd!

(Just for the record people Katelyn has said many times that she loves her body and I think she looks fine for the body shape she’s going for. And I have no real problem with you Katelyn. I’ve defended you here multiple times but this isn’t the first time you’ve made a body size comment like this and I’m not going to ignore it here.)

****
What is there to ignore? She did not say anyone was fat merely that she would love to see if you who are criticizing ZC are anywhere near healthy. In other words if your diet is so healthy show the proof. If ours is so unhealthy show the proof and quit simply saying one day we will have a deficiency!

Comment by mariasol on February 13, 2010 @ 11:43 am
Joe#2, my personal opinion is that it is dangerous to tell people that a diet of ground beef, and nothing else than ground beef, is healthy.

Yes, there is no proof that such a diet would lead to disaster as most people are not silly enough to attempt it.

****
Thanks for sayiing it is simply your personal opinion. So since you have no proof you make a personal attack saying those who do eat that way are silly because they do not share your opinion. Why is it not ok for those people to have their opinion when you have no evidence there is something wrong with their diet?

Comment by VLC_Lovin_It on February 13, 2010 @ 9:02 am
“It’s just plain stupid, juvenile and whole bunch of other stuff to tell someone their opinion is wrong or worthless because they may or may not be as thin as you. Body size has absolutely nothing to do with the validity/worth of a persons opinions/thoughts/etc”

Amen.

****
And continuing to say that ZC may one day cause a deficiency is just as invalidate and fallacious!

I think their opinion is silly, they think my opinion is silly (unintelligent, an idiot, moron…). I don’t see that a statement that “people are silly” is a personal attack. “Silly” obviously refers to their opinion and not whether they are fat, skinny, look good, or any other aspects of their personality.

@mariasol Much better to point out WHY someone’s opinion is silly. To just say it is silly is really shall we say SILLY? Facts and reasonable thought out counter arguments are a much better way to do things IMO. If you give facts and then say well your opinion is silly based on these facts. then silly is appropriate and just an adjective to describe their ‘facts’ or ‘opinions.

That was my point Anon3, thanks.

And once again a charge that ZC will cause poor nutrition without any cases to back up the charge

Right here, Joe#2.

http://www.csuchico.edu/agr/grsfdbef/pdf/amberabbottgrassfedbeef.pdf

Let’s leave aside the evidence that the Inuit ate plant foods and the Masai drank blood. Stefansson and the Inuit did not eat grain fed meat. Unless their caribou came from factory farms, those animals never saw grain of any kind. The article cited shows that grain fed meat has far fewer nutrients than grass fed meat. So how do the people at ZIOH make up for that if they plan to eat grain fed meat and water for the rest of their lives? Blind faith in CW’s pronouncements?

Mariasol. “Yes, there is no proof that such a diet would lead to disaster as most people are not silly enough to attempt it.”

This really doesn’t fly as an argument. One could say, and they often do, that low carb eating leads to heart disease and most people are not silly enough to attempt it.

Really? Does that work for you? Without any facts to back it up this is really a specious argument.

Oh and before anyone thinks I don’t know what ’specious’ means here is the definition: “apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments.”

@Stargazey That still doesn’t make your case. What are you going to use to prove the level of necessary nutrients? The RDI which is really AFAIK an educated guess IMO. And can you prove that a diet w/o carbohydrates is nutritionally deficient? You can’t. You can point out possible reasons why it is most likely deficient but you cannot prove it.

I haven’t seen a valid argument that a ground beef only diet would provide the nutrition a body needs. Not that it is clear exactly what we need. I buy the argument that the need might be less in the absence of carbohydrates but I don’t believe the need would be none.

@Stargazey – 2 things:

1. Saying that ‘anyone who posts at ZIOH feels superior to the rest of us’ is totally ridiculous. I post at ZIOH, DC, and would post anywhere else there is discussion about my chosen lifestyle. You can pretty much ask anyone at either place who has known me over the past couple years if I have ever taken a superior attitude with anyone. Try not to generalize so much.

2. I believe grass-few meat is superior to grain fed, no doubt. I eat both, but if it was convenient for me to eat grass-fed only, I would. However, the article you posted, if I am reading it correctly, seems to state that everything that is in grass-fed beef is also in grain-fed though in smaller amounts. So the article doesn’t prove that a diet of grain fed beef is in any way deficient.

One could say, and they often do, that low carb eating leads to heart disease and most people are not silly enough to attempt it.

One could, and they would be wrong. Since the publication of Dr. Akins’ Diet Revolution, tens if not hundreds of thousands of people have done low-carb eating. As far as we can tell, they are not more prone to heart disease than the general population. The mainstream media would love to make that case, and they have been unable to do so.

How many ZC-ers have eaten the ZIOH regimen for 40 years? The Bear hasn’t done too well with his version of it. And CW et al. have been at it for about two years.

It is not up to me to “prove” that the ZIOH regimen is unsafe. It’s up to you to “prove” that it’s safe. As 2BIG said above, you-all are the guinea pigs. No people group in history has eaten only grain fed meat and water for a lifetime. ZIOH adherents will be the first to see if it works or if it doesn’t.

The question would be “what nutrients would one be deficient in if all one ate were ground beef”. Folate? Vitamin A? Calcium? Really any nutrient found in liver or bones as that is what is missing as far as I can tell from an all ground beef diet. Now saying that still does not PROVE eating only ground beef leads to deficiency diseases. Those at Bellevue thought Stef would have scurvy in 3 weeks and we know how wrong they were. You really cannot PROVE is is deficient without a controlled study with those only eating ground beef. And then you would have to control the content of the ground beef. Ain’t going to happen.

Comment by Stargazey on February 13, 2010 @ 12:42 pm
So how do the people at ZIOH make up for that if they plan to eat grain fed meat and water for the rest of their lives? Blind faith in CW’s pronouncements?

****
First, thanks for the article, but I am not sure that the article supports your argument that ZC will lead to nutrient deficiencies. If your argument is that grass fed beef have more of certain nutrients than grain fed, then the article supports that. However I believe the ZIOH argument would be that grain fed has what is needed for a ZC diet. This article does not refute that. The article’s closing argument does not say any beef is lacking what is needed -

“Beef in general supports considerable healthful compounds, including a high proportion of monosaturated fatty acids, a number of vitamins, minerals and all the essential amino acids. However, the effect of diet, such as forage or grass only diets can enhance the proportion of CLA, omega-3 fatty acids and improve the concentration of Vitamins A and E. The scientific literature supports the hypothesis that grassfed beef contains a higher proportion of healthful lipids and antioxidants important to human health as compared to conventional beef.”

In support of ZIOH’s position, the article contradicts itself. It is stated “there is no recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for beta-carotene,” but later to support that grass fed is better says “grass-fed beef supplies two times the beta-carotene of conventional beef. A typical 3 ounce (oz.) serving would provide 10% of the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for beta-carotene…” Just because grass fed has more of whatever nutrient does not mean that grain fed is not enough especially when there is no RDA!

It also states “More important is the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6. Both conventional and grass-fed beef provide acceptable 6:3 ratios, however grass-fed beef is closer to the ideal of a 1:1 ratio.” So either is good and for a ZCer the lesser ratio would not matter because he is not getting omega 6 found in vegetable matter found in SAD or even low carb.

So, great article saying that grass fed has more of certain nutrients than grain fed, but poor argument for saying ground beef only is dangerous and even weaker argument that a general ZC leads to deficiency.

Which is why the ‘experts’ are always telling everyone to eat a balanced diet. Because they don’t have a clue as to what RDIs are or should be. It is all a best guess. Somewhat educated but a guess. Why do you think so many people take supplements? And what the heck is a balanced diet anyway?

Good posts Daveo and Anon3.
@Stargazey If your argument is ZC is leads to deficiency why is it our responsibility to prove you wrong? You cannot prove your argument.

Anon3, I agree with “educated guess.” I just don’t buy CW’s guess as I don’t find it educated.

Comment by Anon3 on February 13, 2010 @ 1:47 pm
And what the heck is a balanced diet anyway?
***
I would say eating that amount of meat that is proportional to my hunger!

Yes, nothing about ZIOH-ZC can be proved, yet. Why? The “experiment” (or scientific study if you like LOL) is a work-in-progress as we speak. And CW is using actual human beings for his guinea pigs, which is despicable, to say the least!

Having said the above, I have to admit that there may be one evidence of how ZIOH-ZC has messed up one person – The Bear. And ZIOH uses The Bear as a prime example of how great their WOE works. Quite funny though, because it’s not working so well for The Bear. Furthermore, The Bear’s WOE is used as a basis for ZIOH-ZC. However, few actually eat like The Bear eats.

It’s all just so f*cked up it does my head in!

Comment by mariasol on February 13, 2010 @ 1:54 pm
Anon3, I agree with “educated guess.” I just don’t buy CW’s guess as I don’t find it educated.

****
So what nutrient does your educated guess say his diet is missing? And when is it going to start effecting his health. The guess that one day he will be deficient is not really educated either.

Stargazey. “It is not up to me to “prove” that the ZIOH regimen is unsafe. It’s up to you to “prove” that it’s safe.”

“So how do the people at ZIOH make up for that if they plan to eat grain fed meat and water for the rest of their lives?”

Make up for what? Nutritional deficiencies? None of them from what I read are suffering from nutritional diseases at the present time. This is all speculation. Pure, unadulterated speculation and conjecture. Does that make you wrong? No. Does it make them right? No. But unlike Kimkins they don’t tell anyone to go hungry, eat low fat, only eat 500 calories a day, etc. and they are not suffering from their hair falling out. And don’t point out Suzanne and her hair issues as a counter argument. There are many many reasons for hair loss. The vast vast majority are not suffering hair loss.

So in spite of the peanut gallery and their comments, they appear to be doing well. And people STILL keep claiming there are no long terms studies regarding the Atkins diet. 2 year Atkins studies are not long term as the critics are defining longevity studies here for ZC so don’t go there using Atkins 2 year studies as proof.

prove you wrong? You cannot prove your argument.
Comment by mariasol on February 13, 2010 @ 1:54 pm

Anon3, I agree with “educated guess.” I just don’t buy CW’s guess as I don’t find it educated.

***

Your comment, Mariasol, is a thing of beauty.

Stargazey If your argument is ZC is leads to deficiency why is it our responsibility to prove you wrong? You cannot prove your argument.

Nothing can be proven in science. The best we can say is that our hypothesis has not yet been falsified.

Let’s specify that I’m not sure that ZC leads to deficiency. However, I’m fairly certain that ZC as practiced by ZIOH will lead to deficiency.

I’m not betting my life on my dietary beliefs about ZIOH. You are.

And yet another gem by one of the mods on ZIOH:

“If I went VLC I would be diving for a tub of ice cream and surrounded by bars of chocolate, not pickles!”

Since when are bars of chocolate or a tub of ice cream “VLC”?

I don’t particularly find Mariasol’s comment about CW’s guess not being educated to be a thing thing of beauty at all.

Here we go again. The fur traders ate pemmican for a very long period of time. Pemmican is muscle meat and fat. Period. They did not suffer. So to say it is not educated is just plain wrong IMO based on the historical record. Round and round we go. And back in the same place we started at.

I’ve seen both LC Ice Cream and Chocolate. You haven’t? My dad eats a chocolate bar that claims to have 0 net carbs.

They are not saying that these foods like ice cream are VLC, they are saying many VLC foods lead them, personally, to cravings. So it starts with a pickle, but then they want more and more. Kinda like an alcoholic who cannot have one drink.
Did I really need to explain this comment to you? Please tell me you were just being argumentative and that you did understand the meaning of the comment.
As for zc being healthy? I have no idea. I know it is for me. The alternative is me throwing up all my food. I have tried all the other options, they do not stop me from puking my food. So, yes, zc is better than throwing up all the time.
I added green beans on Atkins and I binge and purged on them. I binged on oppsie rolls. I have to be very strict, this is life or death for me.

Anti_ZIOH_Cult. “Since when are bars of chocolate or a tub of ice cream “VLC”?”

They are not VLC. Some who eat any carbs, any carbs, go off the reservation if they even eat VLC. Their contention and experience. Not mine. That is the point of that statement not that chocolate and ice cream are VLC.

Comment by Stargazey on February 13, 2010 @ 2:14 pm
Stargazey If your argument is ZC is leads to deficiency why is it our responsibility to prove you wrong? You cannot prove your argument.

Nothing can be proven in science. The best we can say is that our hypothesis has not yet been falsified.

Let’s specify that I’m not sure that ZC leads to deficiency. However, I’m fairly certain that ZC as practiced by ZIOH will lead to deficiency.

I’m not betting my life on my dietary beliefs about ZIOH. You are.

****
Thanks for making our argument! We say ZC is fine and has not yet been falsified. Which according to you means that YOU have to prove that ZC is dangerous or leads to deficiency. All we have so far is that you think it will.

And, no my dietary beliefs are not based on one site or one person’s belief. Neither do I plan to change them because a couple of people “think” they are wrong.

@Stargazey. “Let’s specify that I’m not sure that ZC leads to deficiency. However, I’m fairly certain that ZC as practiced by ZIOH will lead to deficiency.’

ZIOH ZC is Bear ZC. Have never heard it defined as anything other than that. Yes, CW eats only grass fed meat and water. That is him. Bear ZC allows for cheese, cream, eggs, spices, offal, muscle meat – grain fed or grass fed, bones I guess if you want em. All things sourced from animals plus the spices. Sounds ZC to me.

So it is the individual’s and not ZIOH’s definition of ZC is what you take issue with. As I have pointed out before, you are a fool to not do your own research on the internet.

Suzanne, thanks for the clarification. You used to credit Atkins for the cure of your bulimia but I guess it was still a problem at that time.

None of them from what I read are suffering from nutritional diseases at the present time.

Like muscle cramps? Like high blood sugars?

Anon3, could you please point me to a source that claims that anybody ate pemmican and nothing else? For years? Or, this group of Inuits that ate nothing but caribou for years?

“They are not saying that these foods like ice cream are VLC, they are saying many VLC foods lead them, personally, to cravings. So it starts with a pickle, but then they want more and more. Kinda like an alcoholic who cannot have one drink.
Did I really need to explain this comment to you? Please tell me you were just being argumentative and that you did understand the meaning of the comment.” ~ Suzanne

You are right. I misinterpreted that comment.

Did not say or imply for years. Best I remember is that in NBBA they ate it for long periods of time and as the sole source. Stef did not say how long. I did not mention the caribou thing but I believe that reference is in NBBA as well.

Stargazey. Let’s get real here shall we and not be a drama queen. Muscle cramps. Ever drink too much and wake up in the middle of the night with cramps. Why? Dehydration from the alcohol. Maybe depletion of B6? Can’t remember. Lot of theories on leg cramps. And people not eating ZC have restless leg syndrome. You are going to blame this on the diet? Not everyone eating ZC gets leg cramps. Unless you have a controlled study of those eating ZC and the preponderance of leg cramps on that diet, you make a poor argument.

High blood sugar? For someone not diabetic and eating ZC? You make a mockery of Dr. Bernstein with that statement. Bernstein diet is 30 grams of carbs or less. And Dr. Harris of Panu says if you are diabetic you should be eating ZC. So all meat and high blood sugar? Does not compute.

There is a guy on ZOIH (Delfuego) who, along with his wife and 2 kids, hasn’t eaten anything but pemmican for at least 4 or 5 years.

…a personal attack that anyone staying at ZIOH feels they are superior to you.

…you are a fool to not do your own research on the internet.

Thanks.

“ZIOH ZC is Bear ZC. Have never heard it defined as anything other than that. Yes, CW eats only grass fed meat and water. That is him. Bear ZC allows for cheese, cream, eggs, spices, offal, muscle meat – grain fed or grass fed, bones I guess if you want em. All things sourced from animals plus the spices. Sounds ZC to me.

So it is the individual’s and not ZIOH’s definition of ZC is what you take issue with. As I have pointed out before, you are a fool to not do your own research on the internet.”

Wrong. “Eat the meat and drink the water” ~ CW. And of course many people are going to/already are doing just that. Blind faith in the leader. He doesn’t like organ meat, and the majority of people don’t, so they just conveniently skip that because the leader does it and says it’s perfectly fine. Also, your comment above supports my observation I previously posted, below:

“Yes, nothing about ZIOH-ZC can be proved, yet. Why? The “experiment” (or scientific study if you like LOL) is a work-in-progress as we speak. And CW is using actual human beings for his guinea pigs, which is despicable, to say the least!

Having said the above, I have to admit that there may be one evidence of how ZIOH-ZC has messed up one person – The Bear. And ZIOH uses The Bear as a prime example of how great their WOE works. Quite funny though, because it’s not working so well for The Bear. Furthermore, The Bear’s WOE is used as a basis for ZIOH-ZC. However, few actually eat like The Bear eats.

It’s all just so f*cked up it does my head in!” ~ Anti_ZIOH_Cult

…a personal attack that anyone staying at ZIOH feels they are superior to you.

Stargazey. Let’s get real here shall we and not be a drama queen.

Thanks, again.

“CW is using actual human beings for his guinea pigs”.

Talk about drama. I could say the same exact thing about Dr. Furhman and Dr. McDougall. Both of whom have far more influence than CW ever will and IMO are creating vegetarian zombies who will suffer from ill health long term.

So if you follow Furhman and McDougall you are a guinea pig as well IMO. And I guess they are all “brainwashed” as well. And anyone eating according to the food pyramid is “brainwashed’ as well.

People make up their own minds and take action as a result. They are responsible for their own health and the consequences.

We have been through all of this before. Round and round we go, when we will stop nobody knows.

@Anti_ZIOH_Cult get real. CW is using himself as a guinea pig if you will and the rest of the members are actual human beings which means they have brains and free will to leave if they desire. So if they are his guinea pigs they have submitted willing. What is your diet based on? Are telling me that there are no individuals following your diet for whom it is not working so well for? And if that is the case why are you so blind as to keep following it?

Comment by Stargazey on February 13, 2010 @ 3:18 pm
……you are a fool to not do your own research on the internet.

Thanks.

****
You do not think it is foolish to not research something for yourself?

Comment by Stargazey on February 13, 2010 @ 2:57 pm
None of them from what I read are suffering from nutritional diseases at the present time.

Like muscle cramps? Like high blood sugars?

****
So muscle cramps and high blood sugar are now deficiency diseases? That being the case far more people following SAD and vegan diets are in trouble and you should turn your attention to saving the rest of the free world instead of trying to save CW and his small group of “guinea pigs”!

…a personal attack that anyone staying at ZIOH feels they are superior to you.

…you are a fool to not do your own research on the internet.

Thanks.

*********

…a personal attack that anyone staying at ZIOH feels they are superior to you.

Stargazey. Let’s get real here shall we and not be a drama queen.

Thanks, again.

**********

Now these statements strung together are just silly. They may make you feel better or superior but they are just plain silly.

“Much better to point out WHY someone’s opinion is silly. To just say it is silly is really shall we say SILLY? Facts and reasonable thought out counter arguments are a much better way to do things IMO. If you give facts and then say well your opinion is silly based on these facts. then silly is appropriate and just an adjective to describe their ‘facts’ or ‘opinions.”

Where is your proof? You have a science blog. You understand the scientific process. Let’s see the evidence. Let’s see you negate the hypothesis. Saying you don’t have to prove it is bowing out IMO. Heck you don’t even have to prove it. Just give us enough research that meets a preponderance of the evidence threshold. Tell us when they will suffer from deficiency diseases from eating meat and water – grain fed muscle meat and water. Tell us what vitamin(s) they are lacking, the symptoms, and the time frame for evaluating deficiencies.

“@Anti_ZIOH_Cult get real. CW is using himself as a guinea pig if you will and the rest of the members are actual human beings which means they have brains and free will to leave if they desire. So if they are his guinea pigs they have submitted willing. What is your diet based on? Are telling me that there are no individuals following your diet for whom it is not working so well for? And if that is the case why are you so blind as to keep following it?”
**********************************************************

Some people just have a victim mentality. Someone is always ‘doing’ something to them.

You are right, people have their own free will and decision making ability. I don’t ZC exactly like Charles does, and I have yet to be commanded to do so.

The man runs an internet forum where people discuss eating Zero Carb. This isn’t a big deal people.

I’ll type this very slowly. This sort of name-calling shows that the ZIOH folks do think they are superior to the rest of us.

No number of scientific citations or examples of poor outcomes will ever be enough for the ZIOH-ers. They manage to come up with illogical refutations for every attempt at a reasoned argument. I think the lurkers here can see that rather plainly.

Joe#2 “So muscle cramps and high blood sugar are now deficiency diseases? That being the case far more people following SAD and vegan diets are in trouble and you should turn your attention to saving the rest of the free world instead of trying to save CW and his small group of “guinea pigs”!”

Thanks for saying that. Something I was about to go back and add. You did it much better than I would have.

Stargazey – One could argue that it’s you that thinks you are superior to THEM. After all, you seem to think that you have the unique ability to understand the science and make up your own mind on what is the ideal diet, while we are just a bunch of mindless lemmings with no critical thinking ability.

Stargazey. “I’ll type this very slowly. This sort of name-calling shows that the ZIOH folks do think they are superior to the rest of us.

No number of scientific citations or examples of poor outcomes will ever be enough for the ZIOH-ers. They manage to come up with illogical refutations for every attempt at a reasoned argument. I think the lurkers here can see that rather plainly.”

This is a total copout. Saying someone is a drama queen is not calling them names. I have been accused of the same. I take it for what it was. A bit of hyperbole. Not name calling.

Illogical refutations? Someone makes valid arguments about your ‘proof’ of nutrient differences via grass vs. grain nutrient levels and argues that it is not proof of nutrient deficiencies is an illogical refutation? And then they cannot define what levels of nutrients are necessary? Please. That is very LOGICAL.

What poor outcomes? Someone gets leg cramps? I think the lurkers can decide for themselves that those that make the claims have very little evidence to back up their claims. That is what they should take away from all this. That and it is every person’s right to make informed decisions and eat based on that informed decision. Whether that is food pyramid or ZC.

Comment by Daveo on February 13, 2010 @ 4:07 pm
The man runs an internet forum where people discuss eating Zero Carb. This isn’t a big deal people.

****
You mean that they are not in imminent danger over there? You mean Anti_ZIOH_Cult, Marisol, Stargazey are worried for no reason? There has to be something they are trying to save us from.

Comment by Stargazey on February 13, 2010 @ 4:21 pm
No number of scientific citations or examples of poor outcomes will ever be enough for the ZIOH-ers.

****
Thanks for typing slowly, but maybe you would be more successful if you were to actually come up with some scientific citations instead of the same arguments based on your thoughts and feelings.

Stargazey. “I’ll type this very slowly.”

Talk about a SUPERIOR attitude. What? We are all slow learners and take a long time to comprehend? Now who is above who?

““@Anti_ZIOH_Cult get real. CW is using himself as a guinea pig if you will and the rest of the members are actual human beings which means they have brains and free will to leave if they desire. So if they are his guinea pigs they have submitted willing”

Hmmm… Have you missed the word “cult” in my nic? Do you know how a cult operates? Do you even know the definition of a cult? I never said members at ZIOH were not intelligent. A lot of highly intelligent people get sucked into a cult. You may think you are thinking straight when you are actually not.

I believe VLC/ZC is a good WOE for diabetics. My issue is with the cult called ZIOH and their unique interpretation of ZC and the cult-like behaviour over there, in case anyone has missed that.

Comment by mariasol on February 13, 2010 @ 2:56 pm

Suzanne, thanks for the clarification. You used to credit Atkins for the cure of your bulimia but I guess it was still a problem at that time.

Funny how Suzanne’s story changed. Wonder if she is telling the truth NOW?

@Anti_ZIOH_Cult. Just because you have the word CULT in your moniker and think ZIOH is a cult does that make it so? Or is this all just because you perceive someone did you wrong on ZIOH and you willingly drunk the kool aid and as Dave said you cannot get past the victim mentality? Yah. We get the cult references. We are not slow. I say perceive as all we have is your word that someone did you wrong according to your view of the world. Waiting for those screen shots and copies of PMs to appear. Note I didn’t command you to produce them. I just have your word and no one else. Makes it hard to believe you is all without the proof you keep claiming to have. The proof would go a long way towards validating your claims. That is all.

Now let’s look at a REAL cult and not just the one you BELIEVE to be a cult. Are you old enough to remember Jim Jones? If not please Google. Jim Jones forced his followers to drink the poisoned kool aid. Literally. Have them literally kill their own progeny and then themselves. So please let’s be careful when we use the term cult. Some of us think of a real cult and do not use it as a means of hyperbole to describe a forum we don’t like.

Have any of the ZIOH’ers posted blood test results beyond the lipid profile?

Posting results that reflect nutritional markers surely would be of interest to the site’s members. If there are any, can somebody provide the links here? Thanks.

@A Nonny Mouse. “Suzanne, thanks for the clarification. You used to credit Atkins for the cure of your bulimia but I guess it was still a problem at that time.

Funny how Suzanne’s story changed. Wonder if she is telling the truth NOW?”

Hmmm I believe the phrase “You used to credit Atkins for the cure of your bulimia but I guess it was still a problem at that time” was said by Mariasol and not Suzanne. If Mariasol can site the source of this statement it would have more credibility. And even if she did, SO WHAT? Is your memory perfect? Do you recall EVERY single statement you ever made in your life exactly? Ever wrong? This is all nit picky BS on your part. To what end I have no clue. She cured her bulimia. Who the heck cares if it was Atkins or ZC. If you are bulimic try Atkins. If that doesn’t work, try ZC. YMMV.

Anon3, I can find the source on LCF. I don’t make up these things. But as you said, so what? The only thing it proves is that she is not totally truthful when she claims to have been free from bulimia for 6-7 years; a period that was mainly Atkins. Oopsies (Cleo’s invention) were not even introduced until perhaps 2 years ago.

@Mariasol. I never said you weren’t truthful. I just am not going to say someone is not being truthful when it comes to what they eat. I cannot remember what I had for breakfast yesterday. And who cares about Suzanne except for the Anti Christ? She is not a mod there anymore anyway. Hell I give her a lot of credit for admitting she was bulimic. Sounds like a terrible affliction. She ought to be applauded for admitting she had it and freed herself of it. She says she admits it as she wants to help those who have it. More power to her for wanting to do that. Why should she admit something other than to help others. If it were me, I wouldn’t tell a soul except maybe a therapist if I were seeking help.

SUPERIOR attitude? Perhaps you’re right. I take back my comment about typing slowly.

The reference I cited with regard to grass fed vs. grain fed beef was meant as an illustration of the fact that simply eating grain fed beef and water may not guarantee sufficient nutrients in the long term. It does not guarantee insufficient nutrients either, but that possiblity needs to be considered.

I believe VLC/ZC is a good WOE for diabetics.

Unfortunately, it isn’t always. I asked Dr. Bernstein about it in an e-mail and he thought I was crazy for even suggesting it.

The Bear said that his fasting blood glucose was somewhere around 100. After a year of eating only meat, V. Stefansson had a fasting blood glucose of 110. K. Anderson had a fasting blood glucose of 105. Reference here. If you are familiar with the work of Dr. Bernstein, you will recognize that these are at least 17 points higher than he recommends.

Back when Pooticus and Vickie Ewell were on ZIOH, they both saw increases in their blood glucose to diabetic or prediabetic levels when they did ZC. Vickie saw a return of her diabetes-related neuropathy when she did ZC. And when I was at ZIOH, there was a thread about elevated blood glucose in ZC-er’s over 50. However, you are correct that type 2 diabetes and prediabetes are not deficiency diseases. I stand corrected on that, too.

Regarding actual nutritonal deficiencies, leg cramps can be caused by dehydration from drinking alcohol. They can also be caused by deficiencies of potassium, magnesium, and/or calcium. Reference here. If the cause is calcium deficiency, it might be wise to consider a bone density scan before deciding that doing ZC according to ZIOH guidelines will protect you from osteoporosis.

“Funny how Suzanne’s story changed. Wonder if she is telling the truth NOW?”

Oh it keeps changing all of the time!

Anon3, I don’t “think” ZIOH is a cult. It IS a cult. I’ve been there, in case you forgot.

I guess the question here is, if you have a beef with the way some people are ZCing, what are you eating that they aren’t that you believe makes you healthier and have lower fasting glucose?

You mention Grass Fed Meat, but many of us who post at ZIOH EAT grass-fed beef. Personally, I also take CLO (as I don’t care for organ meat) and supplement with d3. I may add bone meal also as I don’t eat cheese anymore.

So what do you recommend that is so much healthier and keeps your blood sugar lower?

“Have any of the ZIOH’ers posted blood test results beyond the lipid profile?”

Maybe more importantly, would they be honest when/if they publish their results? I have my doubts…

We have seen CW saying the plains indians were ZC and ate it for long periods of time too but I have seen the plains indians recipe for it and it was not just meat and fat.
Every group CW cites as pure ZC eating turn out to not be pure ZC eaters. Lewis and Clark recorded the plains indians as following the buffalo and digging pairie turnips, a very carby root. Native Plains indian foods according to their historical society included fried bread made from ground roots, several veggies, and many berries.

Anon3 could you cite where you are getting that fur trader info from as I’d love to see the actual content of their pemmican.

Comment by Anon3 on February 13, 2010 @ 2:28 pm
I don’t particularly find Mariasol’s comment about CW’s guess not being educated to be a thing thing of beauty at all.

Here we go again. The fur traders ate pemmican for a very long period of time. Pemmican is muscle meat and fat. Period. They did not suffer. So to say it is not educated is just plain wrong IMO based on the historical record. Round and round we go. And back in the same place we started at.

Comment by Anti_ZIOH_Cult on February 13, 2010 @ 7:00 pm
Anon3, I don’t “think” ZIOH is a cult. It IS a cult. I’ve been there, in case you forgot.

****
Pray tell how you managed to escape!! Did you decide to leave and no one forced you to stay or did you disagree and constantly issue the same argument all the time till he kicked you out? Either way is not very cult like!

@Anti_Christ, “Have any of the ZIOH’ers posted blood test results beyond the lipid profile?”

Maybe more importantly, would they be honest when/if they publish their results? I have my doubts…”

And I have my doubts and ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF WHATSOVER that you are being honest about what you have said. Prove it. Just one PM. Just one web page link. I have my doubts..

And saying something is a cult is just propaganda. This is the old if I say something often enough I will make it true as that is all anyone hears. You are doing a good job with the propaganda and not so good with the proof of the allegations. One is innocent until proven guilty and so far there has not been one shred of evidence presented by you.

@Stargazey. Regarding blood glucose rising on ZC. I’ll have to look for it but Peter @ Hyperlipid has put forth the possible mechanism for the rise in blood glucose on low carb not just ZC.

While your anecdotal people are interesting they constitute just that. Anecdotal evidence. And this is ZC not the 30 carbs/day that Dr. Bernstein recommends. Not to question Pooti and Vickie but unfortunately I would have to take their word for it. Pooti is diabetic if I remember right. That is an interesting but a very small select sample and is thus limited as to proving anything.

@2BIG. All pemmican is ideally a 50/50 mixture of muscle meat and either suet fat or muscle fat. Has to be in NBBA. That whole book is really about pemmican.

So what do you recommend that is so much healthier and keeps your blood sugar lower?

I have no recommendations. I am not a physician. I am not a perfect example of good health, either, although I am healthier on low-carb than I was before. But I can say that CW’s version of ZC has quite a few holes in it, both historically and biochemically. And people who attempt to follow it may be putting themselves at risk of elevated blood sugars as well as nutritional deficiencies.

After all, you seem to think that you have the unique ability to understand the science and make up your own mind on what is the ideal diet, while we are just a bunch of mindless lemmings with no critical thinking ability.

When have I claimed a unique ability to understand the science? I have provided scientific citations, as requested. I have also provided specific examples of bad outcomes. If they make sense to the readers, fine. If not, please ignore them. You have no obligation to respect my authoritah.

@Stargazey. “The reference I cited with regard to grass fed vs. grain fed beef was meant as an illustration of the fact that simply eating grain fed beef and water may not guarantee sufficient nutrients in the long term. It does not guarantee insufficient nutrients either, but that possiblity needs to be considered.”

I admitted you could be right. You also could be wrong. I acknowledged the possibility it may not be sufficient. The jury is out. I personally do not eat only grain fed meat and water because the possibility exists that it is not sufficient. Problem is there is no proof. There is some evidence, granted some of it is extrapolation, that muscle meat and fat is sufficient using the historical pemmican accounts. No one said you have to eat only grain fed meat and water. No one is forcing anyone to do so on ZIOH. They are all big boys and girls. They don’t need a momma.

@Anti_ZIOH_Cult. Were you a member of Kimkins? If you were, or anyone was and then joined ZIOH, I wonder why after that experience anyone would willingly drink the CW kool aid. Did anyone not learn anything about trust if that is the case?

@Stargazey. Here is the link @ Hyperlipid regarding the rise in blood glucose on a low carb diet: http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/search/label/Physiological%20insulin%20resistance%20%281%29

“However, while muscles are in “refusal mode” for glucose the least input, from food or gluconeogenesis, will rapidly spike blood glucose out of all proportion. This is fine if you stick to LC in your eating. It also means that if you take an oral glucose tolerance test you will fail and be labelled diabetic. In fact, even a single high fat meal can do this, extending insulin resistance in to the next day. Here’s a reference for this.”

Stargazey – I see where you are coming from, but why worry about Charles’ way of eating so much? First, you don’t follow it so you have nothing to worry about. Second, the people who DO follow it have access to plenty of information to make up their own minds, and Third, surely you must believe that even Charles’ WOE is superior to probably 99.99% of the American people who are out right now sucking down Big Macs, Fries and 44oz Cokes?

Thanks for the link, Anon3. It doesn’t explain daily high glucose values on ZC or LC, but it does explain why both zero-carbers and low-carbers need to do three days of carb loading before an oral glucose tolerance test. Otherwise the test will read artificially high, because their glucose processing system has been down-regulated in the absence or relative absence of carbs.

One of the reasons that ZC-ers and LC-ers may have high daily glucose values is explained <a href="http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-can-eating-excess-protein-raise.html" here. It’s a function of excess protein intake and the glucose-alanine cycle.

Daveo, Charles is free to eat as he wishes. However, I don’t believe that the people at his site have access to plenty of information to make up their own minds. Charles is very persuasive. Most people don’t have the time or the training to research the validity of his claims. Mariasol’s blog gives them the opportunity to see that there is other information they might want to consider if they want to follow the ZIOH path.

Bad link.

http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-can-eating-excess-protein-raise.html

Anon3, you said “She cured her bulimia. Who the heck cares if it was Atkins or ZC”

The reason it matters is that Suzanne keeps stressing how important ZERO CARBS are for her, to keep her from binging and purging. She is claiming that ONLY ZC has cured her bulimia. So if she used to say Atkins cured her bulimia, her story has changed. That’s very disingenuous, way beyond simply forgetting what she said at one point. Some might call it lying.

“So then post an appropriate full body pic showing that your 40 something non-zc body is as healthy and without nutrient deficiency as Katelyn’s or CW’s”

Nope. You turned the whole argument around to the issue of health when it had nothing to do with that. Large or small I would never judge someone’s health by what they look like on the outside. Furthermore, Katelyn never said show me you’re healthy. She runs around posting pics of herself and acting like her BODY is not only better but that it’s size also makes her/her opinions better than anyone larger than her. To tell someone you’d like to see what they look like in response to their OPINION (which is all that’s being offered here) is just so very junior highish and really quite telling.

“It’s all just so f*cked up it does my head in!” ~ Anti_ZIOH_Cult”

You can say that again. Keep up the good fight, Anti_ZIOH_Cult. Arguing with some of these people has to be migraine inducing. I would have given up a long time ago. When you’re ready to share the info you have you know plenty of us will have your back when CW goes into spin mode.

Daveo, Charles is free to eat as he wishes. However, I don’t believe that the people at his site have access to plenty of information to make up their own minds. Charles is very persuasive. Most people don’t have the time or the training to research the validity of his claims. Mariasol’s blog gives them the opportunity to see that there is other information they might want to consider if they want to follow the ZIOH path.
****************************

Still don’t think you’re giving people enough credit. I have NO training, and I was able to research on my own and figure out what I wanted to have in and out of my diet. I would think anyone who was concerned enough about their health to pursue a ZC lifestyle would do similar research. We can agree to disagree. I’ll continue posting at ZIOH, DC, and anywhere else there is good ZC discussion, and continue making up my own mind on what makes for a complete diet

@Stargazey. I disagree as to what Peter’s blog post showed:

“This now fits in to an overall pattern. Elevated non esterified fatty acids induce physiological insulin resistance and a higher than expected FBG level. A simple switch to higher carbohydrate eating (in myself) allows the normal underlying pancreatic and muscle function to show. It also fits in with the FBG of 3.5mmol/l found in the carbohydrate fuelled natives in the Kitava studies.

So do I worry about a FBG of over 5.5mmol/l?

Not while my HbA1c is 4.4%.”

He lays out the mechansim. He also states that FBG may not be the best measure. HbA1C may be preferred and even the ADA is leaning that way. HbA1C is a measure of glycated hemoglobin.

Atkins did cure my bulimia, as did zc. If I had never read Atkin’s book, I would have never started down the low carb lifestyle. I love Atkins and when people ask about my diet, I recommend they start with his book.
I was also veryy happy doing my version of VLC, which included mayo, cheese, nuts, whatever…it worked for me.
You guys keep implying that I am sitting here lying, what would I have to gain by lying about my diet? NOTHING!
If you search for things wrong, you will find them. I word things differently on different days, I never thought it such a big deal. I am not writing a book or selling anything. Relax.
I credit Atkins and ZC for saving me from bulimia. Oh, I should also credit my son, he was my real motivation for trying to stop being bulimic.

So do I worry about a FBG of over 5.5mmol/l?

Not while my HbA1c is 4.4%.

I agree with you insofar as Peter is concerned. According to this site, his average blood glucose is 79 mg/dl. I have no idea why his fasting blood glucose was so much higher.

By contrast Lex Rooker, who eats one meal of raw meat and fat daily, has an Hb A1c of 6.0, which translates to an average blood glucose of 136 mg/dl.

http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/journals/lex’s-journal/870/

Yet Lex had measured his between-meal glucose at about 100 mg/dl at the time he had that test done. Peter’s fasting blood glucose was about 99 mg/dl.

Identical fasting blood glucose values, yet one had a low Hb A1c and the other had a high Hb A1c. Because of that, I must agree that fasting blood glucose is not the best measure. However, because I don’t have Hb A1c levels for the Bear, V. Stefansson or K. Anderson, I must go by the only measure I have.

Do you have any Hb A1c values for any of the people at ZIOH? Especially for the members who are over 50?

Daveo,

ZIOH is a cult. Charles’ post to me says as much. He posts, “Yes, we all drink the Kool-Aid and they are all brainwashed by my mental insanity, but that’s the way it is. “. I know he is joking there, but there is truth to what he says.

However you are also correct. People are free to come and go. People are free to do as they wish. Some people there (like you) have not bought into the whole thing. But many have. ZIOH is part of a new internet creation. It is cult-lite. Just like a regular cult but without the compound and you get an option to try before you buy.

Charles has got people so wrapped up in his absolute certainty of the way things are that they are not paying attention to what is happening to themselves. This may end up being fine. Who knows? But it may not and that would be a tragedy. Cults refuse to open their minds to the possibility that they might be even slightly wrong. Check back on a few of my posts, you will find this mindset to be true. It’s dangerous thinking. It’s the kind of crap that can actually get people killed.

Note that I didn’t say his woe was wrong, just that only a brainwashed fool is certain that it isn’t wrong.

-E

Was never a member of Kimkins, but I do know a lot about cults!

Just as Daveo, I believe, said, just because you were mistreated at or could not agree with everything at ZIOH does not make it a cult. Look up the definition of a cult there is nothing being hidden at ZIOH and everyone is free to stay or leave. One main characteristic of a cult is going against orthodox teaching meaning everyone here not following the SAD is in a cult.
Found this on the net:
In our modern world of the new millennium, the word “cult” has become largely overused and is now a catch-all for any group, religion or lifestyle which someone doesn’t understand, or with which they happen to disagree. This is a dangerous trend, as many of the organizations labeled a cult by dissidents are truly legitimate groups. Once the taint of the term “cult” is applied to a particular group, it is often difficult to change that image to the public.

“To avoid careless labeling which could be harmful to a group and its adherents, it is important to know just exactly what a cult is, and how it is defined. A cult, by modern standards, is any group that incorporates mind control to deceive, influence and govern its followers.”

What is ZIOH’s deception?

Comment by Anonymous on February 13, 2010 @ 9:32 pm
Nope. You turned the whole argument around to the issue of health when it had nothing to do with that.

****
Sorry I thought the argument was people blindly following ZIOH or ZC may eventually have nutrient deficiencies hence affecting their HEALTH! What then is your concern – that they will feel left out of the group because that meanie dictator CW might cancel their membership?

What is ZIOH’s deception?

Please read the previous ~650 comments on this blog. If you still don’t know the answer, you can be sure that you have drunk the Kool-Aid.

” A cult, by modern standards, is any group that incorporates mind control to deceive, influence and govern its followers.” ”

Which is EXACTLY what happened to me!!

LOL @ Stargazey yet again! Love your comments!

Comment by Stargazey on February 14, 2010 @ 9:57 am
What is ZIOH’s deception?

Please read the previous ~650 comments on this blog. If you still don’t know the answer, you can be sure that you have drunk the Kool-Aid.

****
Are you referring to the 650 chicken little comments of impending doom for which you have failed to produce a valid scientific argument? That is a cup of kool-aid I’ll pass to the next chicken little!

Are you referring to the 650 chicken little comments of impending doom for which you have failed to produce a valid scientific argument? That is a cup of kool-aid I’ll pass to the next chicken little!

Uh huh. Enjoy your cult.

Erasmus. “Charles has got people so wrapped up in his absolute certainty of the way things are that they are not paying attention to what is happening to themselves.”

Nice argument that doesn’t really hold water. He has had what, over 1000 members leave by choice or closure? And many of those like Satya have indicated why they left. So if CW was so mind controlling and convincing why the ginormous number that have left? Seems to me he has very little if any control.

There is an old post on this blog where I address the cult label for diet forums: http://mariasols.com/2009/10/30/diet-cults/

The point is that a cult member (or a member of a cult-like group) wouldn’t recognize the signs. As long as you are in 100% agreement with the dogma, there is no sense of being controlled. Why would it?

It’s only when you deviate from the prescribed path that it becomes obvious. Like the member that got thrown out for eating a few pickles. She said she felt like a pariah (her words). She was told that she was not allowed back until she had conquered her “addictions” on her own and only then could she rejoin the pure ZC compound (my words).

Isn’t this how a cult operates? Friendships mean nothing if you are not following the program?

@Stargazey. HbA1C as you are probably aware has it flaws. I have no clue what type of meter Lex uses. Some meters are pretty bad IMO at accurate measurements. At best all you can tell is a trend. If that.

No data at ZIOH as I am not a member there. Just read there a lot and like to defend against a lot of this internet speculation that goes on without any scientific basis. Actually, I agree with Erasmus that CW should do the same. His own health is n=1. Doesn’t mean much as far as science goes. Doesn’t mean he is wrong either. Still awaiting the timeline for deficiency diseases to be produced by the critics.

Mariasol. “The point is that a cult member (or a member of a cult-like group) wouldn’t recognize the signs. As long as you are in 100% agreement with the dogma, there is no sense of being controlled. Why would it?”

According to your definition of a cult all religions are cults. They all certainly have a dogma. They certainly control behavior. They kick members out for not following their precepts. Let’s start calling them cults then shall we?

Cult as Joe said is overused for dramatic effect. Please stop. As I said before, real cults, like Jim Jones, are the foundation for a cult. Where the heck do you think drink the kool aid started?

Anon3, not even Charles’ example supports a diet of ground beef only because that is not what he has been eating. He even eats shrimp now and then.

Like you, I would like to know how long it will take for deficiencies to show up. I have not been successful googling it. I have seen numbers from 3 months, to 12 months, to 20 years for various vitamins and minerals. But that would all depend on what diet they are on, wouldn’t it? And how a deficiency is detected. As I pointed out earlier in these comments, low calcium would not be seen in a blood test as the body compensates by taking calcium from your own bones. I just wouldn’t like to find that out down the road when the fractures start to show up.

Being kicked out because you don’t live up to the requirements of membership does not make someplace a ‘cult’. quite the opposite. A cult would submit you to brainwashing to make you step into line, NOT kick you out.

Again… it is a ZERO CARB forum. Why would someone who is eating pickles WANT to stay, and why should they be expected to be ALLOWED to stay?

I don’t agree with anyone being treated badly before being shown the door. No one should be berated or verbally abused, but they should still be gone if they aren’t following a ZC lifestyle, don’t you think? After all, it’s Charles’ board. If he doesn’t want the board to be devoted to arguing the merits of ZC with people who aren’t ZC, that is his prerogative. Similarly, if he decided the wanted to allow that and spend his days debating people, that would be his right too. His house, his rules.

“Are you referring to the 650 chicken little comments of impending doom for which you have failed to produce a valid scientific argument? That is a cup of kool-aid I’ll pass to the next chicken little!” ~ Joe#2

You do realize you’ve just included yourself in the statement above, yes?

How refreshing to see Erasmus supporting my observation!! I might be totally stupid, be he is NOT. In fact, he is highly intelligent!

Mariasol. “Friendships mean nothing if you are not following the program?”

Nope. They do not from what I’ve read about why members are booted. I respect his intent to be a pure ZC forum. His house, his rules. He is not going to attract a whole lot of members with that definition and those actions but maybe that is not his goal. He has to live with his decisions. Anyone is free to go elsewhere at any time. And most have so I don’t get all the angst expressed about ZIOH. His forum will live or die based on how many can adhere to ZC. Not many can. That is reflected by his declining membership. “The Bear” said many cannot anyway due to acculturation. So I don’t find this as an indictment of ZIOH either.

by Mariasol: “….I would like to know how long it will take for deficiencies to show up. I have not been successful googling it. I have seen numbers from 3 months, to 12 months, to 20 years for various vitamins and minerals.”

Absent testing, it’s difficult to cast the ZIOH experiment in a legitimate light. This lack of data makes it easier for the charge to stick that ZIOH is a collection of people easily led by a charismatic but controlling personality.

More to the point, however, one would think those participating in the ZC-as-prescribed-by-CW way of eating would WANT to know how their bodies are processing (by the numbers vice the “feelings”) a restricted diet of meat and water. Plus, how satisfying it would be for them to wave the results in the faces of family, friends, and internet detractors.

It would be a simple and prudent step to require, prior to granting membership, the applicant to provide baseline micronutrient test results with additional testing at the six and 12 month mark. This requirement also would more efficiently assist CW’s efforts to restrict the membership to those who are serious about meat-and-water supplement-free zero carbing.

by Daveo: “I don’t agree with anyone being treated badly before being shown the door. No one should be berated or verbally abused…?”

You mean like what they did to Kate?

People sign up for ZIOH clearly knowing that they can’t challenge the ideas of CW. If they choose to stay after seeing the way people are treated, they do so knowingly. I tend to believe that those who fall into the cult mentality would do so no matter what the subject was.

CW doesn’t like to be challeneged and reacts defensively, and many of us are able to recognize that and move on. If one can’t, you aren’t going to save them.

anon. “Absent testing, it’s difficult to cast the ZIOH experiment in a legitimate light. This lack of data makes it easier for the charge to stick that ZIOH is a collection of people easily led by a charismatic but controlling personality.”

Absent testing it’s difficult to cast any LC board in a legitimate light. One could say the same about Dirty Carnivore forum although I am confused by what Dirty Carnivore means. Eat 90% from the animal kingdom. Eat what from the animal kingdom? Should I eat liver for folate? What if I don’t like liver? They have people on that forum eating ground beef and eggs. Should one follow that person? Where’s the folate in beef and eggs? And if they have no symptoms of a deficiency disease but their values are low on the lab range for a vitamin? Just because there are lab values based on SAD eating, who’s to say those values apply to those eating LC or ZC?

Guess we are back to the “you are responsible for your own health”.

visitor. “People sign up for ZIOH clearly knowing that they can’t challenge the ideas of CW. CW doesn’t like to be challenged and reacts defensively.”

I agree with that. But if you can see it so can his members. Daveo says he does his own research so clearly at least one of his members is not “brainwashed” by CW. Why assume the rest are equally brainwashed? Just because CW says it doesn’t mean the rest buy into it. Once again, why would you take advice from CW? He has no medical degree, etc. His disclaimer says so. Read the disclaimer folks if you join a forum and act accordingly. Do your own research. With the internet it is pretty darn easy to sort it out so at least you do yourself no great harm.

by Daveo: “I don’t agree with anyone being treated badly before being shown the door. No one should be berated or verbally abused…?”

You mean like what they did to Kate?
*****************************************

@anon – It should NEVER happen.

These same arguments have gone on at ALC, Magic Bus and who knows where else. People aren’t interested in being persuaded, so why do it again here? One side rejects biochemical science and symptoms as flawed, and the other rejects the relevance of historical peoples who didn’t follow ZIOH’s ZC anyway. Why the big influx of people arguing for the sake of argument? Did the bus leave without you?

Is the current Anon3 the same as the former Anon3?

Why can’t the anons use the nicks you use everywhere else?

@OhYeahBabe. Still the same Anon3. Now and then. Unless someone has usurped my Anon3. Don’t think so.

Anon3:

ZIOH is the ONLY health forum, at least that I’m aware of, that advocates unseasoned meat and water ONLY and shuns supplements. The other forums are open to vegetables, supplements, frankencrap, etc. They are open to varying levels of carbs and any level of supplementation. There is no demerit for eating a pickle or popping a multi. Nor are the members prohibited from discussing the pickle and the multi.

As far as your implication that ZC should be seen in the same light as low carb, low carb has been vetted in scientific studies. Zero carb has not. Enter CW’s experiment, which is fascinating btw but not administered in a manner beyond reproach. Enter blog posts such as Mariasol’s and the comments by the Peanut Gallery (you and I, et al).

I’m not saying ZC is unhealthy. Nor am I saying if a test result falls outside the reference range the sky is falling. You might read my post again and notice that I called for a baseline reading to be established. Then, at the six and 12 months mark, if the levels change from the baseline, the member at least has a picture of how the diet is affecting the body. The person can determine if the change is good, bad, or otherwise but at least they KNOW there is a change.

@OhYeahBabe. OK I will now use JD as that is what I usually post with on JM’s menu site and blog. No more Anon3. I will be JD.

by Daveo: “I don’t agree with anyone being treated badly before being shown the door. No one should be berated or verbally abused…?”

You mean like what they did to Kate?
*****************************************

@anon – It should NEVER happen.
—————————————–

Yes, Daveo. It should NEVER happen. But it did. Equally disappointing as the identify of those who joined in is the identity of those who sat on the sidelines saying nothing.

The reason ZIOH ultimately will fail as a forum is the undercurrent of hostility. Members eventually will tire of it, or become the target of it, and will move along leaving behind the core group that relishes the sport of it.

As you noted, more forums are now available to whittle away the time discussing life as a zero carber. ZIOH isn’t the only bar on the block.

anon. “You might read my post again and notice that I called for a baseline reading to be established. Then, at the six and 12 months mark, if the levels change from the baseline, the member at least has a picture of how the diet is affecting the body. The person can determine if the change is good, bad, or otherwise but at least they KNOW there is a change.”

I understand what you are saying but I don’t know what it buys one. You would have to have a broad list of values to test for. And you would have to be able to interpret the change. Given a lack of symptoms who says the change is significant. And I understand where Mariasol is coming from with respect to calcium. Your body may pull calcium from your bones until you have osteoporosis. Not sure if blood levels of Ca are sufficient or you would need a bone scan to tell.

@anon on February 14, 2010 @ 2:45 pm, I agree with you, every word. Wish I knew who I was agreeing with though!

I’d go farther and say that lab values don’t give the whole story (e.g. calcium…) but it’s a good start.

Thank you, JD, for switchting away from anonX. It makes it easier to keep people straight.

@JD on February 14, 2010 @ 3:25 pm

I agree with this, too, but wonder if this might be trading short term health for long term health, such as the example with smoking. A person may have no symptoms for decades, kwim? Smoking can even help people achieve a healthier wieght, which lots of people view as the ultimate health marker. That doesn’t mean they’ve been doing their bodies any favors. I’m not trying to be dramatic with that anaology, but saying that an open mind and vigilance are quite necessary. I don’t know that every bowl-o-burger-only person is able to see this need. They put faith in people who “know”, like CW. Problem is, CW isn’t all that curious and lives in the moment when it comes to his WOE. Stifling discussion is hazardous in this way.

Medusa is gone

Comment by OhYeahBabe on February 14, 2010 @ 4:08 pm
@JD on February 14, 2010 @ 3:25 pm

I don’t know that every bowl-o-burger-only person is able to see this need. They put faith in people who “know”, like CW. Problem is, CW isn’t all that curious and lives in the moment when it comes to his WOE. Stifling discussion is hazardous in this way.

****
So it is dangerous for CW to “know” what ZC has done for him which is what ZIOH is about – ZC his way. But it is alright for us to go by what those of you on the other side of the argument “know.” True, CW can only claim 2 years of personal data because that is all he has done. Some there claim longer which means they found their way into the cult before CW came along deceiving people into his cult.

As has been stated before LC people do not have all the studies they are demanding of ZC so their faith is not in science either. Not does the fact that the foods you include with those extra nutrients guarantee you will not have a nutrient deficiency.

Comment by Anti_ZIOH_Cult on February 14, 2010 @ 12:51 pm
“Are you referring to the 650 chicken little comments of impending doom for which you have failed to produce a valid scientific argument? That is a cup of kool-aid I’ll pass to the next chicken little!” ~ Joe#2

You do realize you’ve just included yourself in the statement above, yes?

****
No, you are wrong again. The # 650 came from Stargazey as the number of posts proving her charges against ZIOH. If she were using opposing posts to boost her argument then she was inflating the number of posts to better support her argument. My argument is that if you want to say ZC results in deficiencies offer data proving just that. AFAIK ZIOH does not say that they will never have a deficiency, but that they have been doing ZC for x number of years and have no deficiencies. The same things were said against low carb, but people made a decision that it was better than SAD. ZIOH says ZC is better than either.
Stargazey herself admitted that the burden of proof had to come from your side.

by Joe#2: “CW can only claim 2 years of personal data because that is all he has done.”

What data? He has low body fat and he runs half marathons. But what other data? He won’t take tests because he goes by how he feels and encourages others to do the same.

People walking around with myriad diseases also feel fine and are active up until the point the body begins to lose the fight and symptoms bubble to the surface. Lance Armstrong comes to mind as an example.

Again, I’m not saying zero carbing is an unhealthy way to eat. I am saying that ZIOH’s version (unseasoned meat/water/no supplementation/no testing/no discussion/period/end of story) might reasonably lead people to question the merits of ZC as practiced and preached by ZIOH.

I think Mariasol’s blog and the hundreds of comments in response to her posts points more to the difficulty in understanding the mentality of the forum than the viability and healthfulness of ZC as a diet.

To sum it up, ZIOH gives ZC a bad name.

As has been stated before LC people do not have all the studies they are demanding of ZC…

What studies have we demanded, Joe#2? CW will always find something, no matter how oblique, to object to in any scientific study. There is really no point in doing a formal study of whatever constitutes ZIOH on any particular day.

Or are you talking about our request for blood glucose values in ZIOH members over 50? Or Hb A1c results? Does something about simple little lab tests frighten you, Joe#2?

Comment by anon on February 14, 2010 @ 5:19 pm

What data? He has low body fat and he runs half marathons. But what other data? He won’t take tests because he goes by how he feels and encourages others to do the same.

****
There are whole threads there where people have posted blood work results. Where has CW told others they cannot go to the dr? I’m sure most of you followed the saga with Carolina that is referenced in the posts above, so unless you were reading selectively you should have seen that more than one person @ zioh suggested she visit a dr to see what was wrong.

Also, where is(unseasoned meat/water/no supplementation/no testing/no discussion/period/end of story) demanded there. It is suggested when people say ZC does not work for them. There are plenty there who season meat, drink other than water, supplement their diets, get tests done, and discuss many topics. However, if your definition of discussion is continually saying ZC causes nutrient deficiencies then yes it will probably be end of story for you as a zioh member.

Comment by Stargazey on February 14, 2010 @ 5:33 pm
What studies have we demanded, Joe#2?

****
You keep asking for studies showing people have eaten zc for long periods of time without suffering deficiencies. The correlation is that you do low carb with the same lack of long term studies to support your diet.

Does something about simple little lab tests frighten you, Joe#2?

****
Certainly not, and am not sure where you would get the idea that I am frightened by tests. My last test for blood work was fine a few years back and I am checked by the dr at work every year, though not a full physical. I do plan to have blood work done soon because they do not order it at work every year. Being in good health by all other indications I have not been to my doc on the outside in years, but plan to soon since I am now over 40.

by OYB: “Why can’t the anons use the nicks you use everywhere else?”

In this vein of discussion, I better accept and analyze comments on their merit if I am not interpreting them through the filter of recognizing the online persona.

For instance, I like Erasmus. I immediately favor his comments with an extra dose of credibility and easily overlook a contrary demeanor.

On the flip side, poor Suzanne could suggest the world is round and I would dismiss her opinion as ridiculous because I view her as unredeemingly shallow. Certainly it’s unfair but comments are interpreted through online history when/where it is known.

And her history isn’t good. Vintage Suzanne posts include her implying her in-laws are second class citizens because her FIL dates “only secretaries and hairdressers.” Or, during a time when some ZIOH’ers struggled to make mortgage payments, she lamented her son having the great misfortune in life to travel via private jet.

For those of us who remember these posts, it’s difficult to give her a fair shot now when she probably needs one. She would be better served to adopt an anonymous moniker, not to hide but to have her position weighed fairly.

Here’s one that hasn’t been taken: Heigh None Maus.

“Again, I’m not saying zero carbing is an unhealthy way to eat. I am saying that ZIOH’s version (unseasoned meat/water/no supplementation/no testing/no discussion/period/end of story) might reasonably lead people to question the merits of ZC as practiced and preached by ZIOH.”

I’ve said this about a hundred times but some people keep choosing to ignore this.

anon. “In this vein of discussion, I better accept and analyze comments on their merit if I am not interpreting them through the filter of recognizing the online persona.”

Totally agree with this statement. My reasons as well. You will not find JD as a commentator on any forum except for JM’s blog and menu site.

With respect to CW’s non endorsement of supplementation that some consider the holy grail of ensuring one’s diet is adequate vitamins and minerals. Let’s quote the NIH. BTW, I found this reference in the FAQ forum which is available to any ZIOH forum lurker.

http://consensus.nih.gov/2006/MVMFINAL080106.pdf

“In systematically evaluating the effectiveness and safety
of MVMs in relation to chronic disease prevention,
we found few rigorous studies on which to base clear conclusions and recommendations.”

“Finally, the present evidence is insufficient to recommend either for or against the use of MVMs by the American public to prevent chronic disease. The resolution of
this important issue will require advances in research
and improved communication and collaboration
among scientists, health care providers, patients,
the pharmaceutical and supplement industries, and
the public.”

Comment by Anon on February 14, 2010 @ 6:15 pm
by OYB: “Why can’t the anons use the nicks you use everywhere else?”

In this vein of discussion, I better accept and analyze comments on their merit if I am not interpreting them through the filter of recognizing the online persona.

****
And when someone uses the the name, Anti_ZIOH_Cult, it hard to accept that he is making an objective statement toward or reasonable argument against zioh!

@ Joe#2:

I’m not talking about lipid panels. I’m talking about micronutrient tests. If anybody over there has done this, please post the link (not being confrontational just interested in reading about it).

Further, I didn’t mean to imply CW is against going to doctors. He has, however, stated there is no reason for lab tests because it is more important to judge health on how you feel, perform, and look. By his account, he feels great, he performs well, and he looks great. As I noted, however, so did Lance Armstrong. When they caught his testicular cancer it had already advanced to his brain and liver earning him a 50% chance at survival.

No, I’m not suggesting ZIOH-ZCers are destined for a battle with cancer. I’m making a point that feeling/looking/performing great does not “perfect health” measure.

With regard to LCers, the reason they don’t get as much flack is they are consuming the very vegetables and fruits that are purported to provide nutrients ZCers might not be getting sans supplementation.

Yes, I understand the argument that ZCers don’t need those nutrients because it’s carbs that block the absorption of vitamins/minerals in the first place and without carbs the body gets all it needs from meat. Sounds great in theory but I wouldn’t bet my health on it by going without testing to determine if supplementation is necessary.

I guess the question is, why wouldn’t ZIOH advocate/encourage (or even demand) the tests be done? It’s the right thing to do for the forum members and it strengthens the forum position on supplements not being necessary.

“CW doesn’t like to be challeneged and reacts defensively, and many of us are able to recognize that and move on. If one can’t, you aren’t going to save them.”

So very true. I don’t want to speak for anyone else but as I’ve said before shining a light on CW’s behavior is more important for those who might be thinking about joining that site – not those who are already there.

How many times do we see on various forums “I heard about LC/ZC so I read everything I could find on it and now I’m ready to join”?

This site is giving those people a look at the side of things that CW whitewashes. He can scream all he wants about it being all about health and not weight loss but he knows good and well weight loss is the primary reason people seek out LC/ZC type plans.

Comment by Anti_ZIOH_Cult on February 14, 2010 @ 6:22 pm
“Again, I’m not saying zero carbing is an unhealthy way to eat. I am saying that ZIOH’s version (unseasoned meat/water/no supplementation/no testing/no discussion/period/end of story) might reasonably lead people to question the merits of ZC as practiced and preached by ZIOH.”

I’ve said this about a hundred times but some people keep choosing to ignore this.

****
So which way of ZC is healthy?
What people keep ignoring is that becuase you do not like the way zioh does zc it makes them a cult.

Now if you read Good Calories Bad Calories by Gary Taubes you will find a reference that meat has all the vitamins and minerals necessary except for possibly Vitamin C. Well the fact that fresh meat cures scurvy pretty much answers the Vitamin C issue IMO.

That leaves what is not obtained by eating grain fed meat? Folate as far as I can tell is the major nutrient missing.

“Folic acid deficiency causes very general symptoms such as:

* Fatigue and weakness
* Headaches and difficulty concentrating
* Palpitations
* Diarrhoea
* In the early stages, the tongue may be red and painful leading to a smooth shiny surface in the chronic stages of deficiency.

The Three Stages of Folic Acid Deficiency

At the first stage of deficiency the plasma folate levels fall. If the diet does not contain adequate folate, the red blood cell (RBC) folate levels drop after three to four months. With continuing deficiency, the bone marrow cells and other cells become affected. This is stage three, the clinical stage of folic acid anemia. It occurs after approximately four to five months of deficiency. Folic acid anemia is called megaloblastic anemia.

Read more at Suite101: Folic Acid Deficiency: The Causes, Symptoms, and Stages of Folate Deficiency and Anemia http://vitamins-minerals.suite101.com/article.cfm/folic_acid_folate_deficiency#ixzz0fYS8ZRf5”

You now have a site that says 5 months is the time limit for displaying folic deficiences. Not aware of anyone at ZIOH complaining of these symptoms.

The # 650 came from Stargazey as the number of posts proving her charges against ZIOH. If she were using opposing posts to boost her argument then she was inflating the number of posts to better support her argument.

Um, no. It came from adding up the number of comments in Mariasol’s three most recent blogposts about ZIOH. I assumed that the anti comments would need to be read in the context of the pro comments.
—————

You keep asking for studies showing people have eaten zc for long periods of time without suffering deficiencies.

I do? CW has only eaten ZC for two years. Except for the Bear, nobody else that I know of has eaten ZC for longer than that. (The Inuit ate berries and other plants that would cause them not to fit CW’s definition of ZC.)
—————

Stargazey herself admitted that the burden of proof had to come from your side.

I believe I said that science doesn’t do “proof.”

“Again, I’m not saying zero carbing is an unhealthy way to eat. I am saying that ZIOH’s version (unseasoned meat/water/no supplementation/no testing/no discussion/period/end of story) might reasonably lead people to question the merits of ZC as practiced and preached by ZIOH.”

I’ve said this about a hundred times but some people keep choosing to ignore this.
**********************************************

Well it’s just not true.

ZIOH’s version as you call it includes, in addition to what you mentioned above:

Seasoned meat
Eggs
Organ Meats
Seafood
Cheese
Butter
Heavy Whipping Cream
Any supplements you feel like taking

Now – Charles’ PERSONAL diet is unseasoned meat and water, but no one is required to follow that. He WILL suggest eliminating items if you struggle, but ZIOH considers all of those things ZC.

Now if you read Good Calories Bad Calories by Gary Taubes you will find a reference that meat has all the vitamins and minerals necessary except for possibly Vitamin C. Well the fact that fresh meat cures scurvy pretty much answers the Vitamin C issue IMO.

That leaves what is not obtained by eating grain fed meat? Folate as far as I can tell is the major nutrient missing.

“Folic acid deficiency causes very general symptoms such as:

* Fatigue and weakness
* Headaches and difficulty concentrating
* Palpitations
* Diarrhoea
* In the early stages, the tongue may be red and painful leading to a smooth shiny surface in the chronic stages of deficiency.

The Three Stages of Folic Acid Deficiency

At the first stage of deficiency the plasma folate levels fall. If the diet does not contain adequate folate, the red blood cell (RBC) folate levels drop after three to four months. With continuing deficiency, the bone marrow cells and other cells become affected. This is stage three, the clinical stage of folic acid anemia. It occurs after approximately four to five months of deficiency. Folic acid anemia is called megaloblastic anemia.

Read more at Suite101: Folic Acid Deficiency: The Causes, Symptoms, and Stages of Folate Deficiency and Anemia http://vitamins-minerals.suite101.com/article.cfm/folic_acid_folate_deficiency#ixzz0fYS8ZRf5”

You now have a site that says 5 months is the time limit for displaying folic deficiences. Not aware of anyone at ZIOH complaining of these symptoms.

**************************************************

If you’re worried about folate, take a B complex vitamin or eat some liver once in a while.

@Daveo. I am not worried about folate deficiency. I should have said grain fed MUSCLE meat. Hate liver. I do eat eggs and cheese and butter. Don’t believe in supplementation. Vitamin supplementation never made me feel better or worse. I was only trying to point out what MAY be missing from an all muscle grain fed diet and the fact that folate is not in muscle meat and yet no one on that forum from what I read is suffering from folate deficiency using those symptoms as a guide to detection.

If you’re worried about folate, take a B complex vitamin or eat some liver once in a while.

Yes. And in the meantime, please don’t get pregnant.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000354.htm

“Folic acid deficiency can cause severe birth defects of the brain and spinal cord, known as neural tube defects.”

Ah I misunderstood you. I’m not against supplementation myself but I only do it for what I feel strongly that my diet is missing. Since I eat mainly muscle meat and fat (grain fed meat and I use grassfed fat for pemmican), I add in some D3 and I take a B-Complex. I’m considering adding some liver once a week if I can manage to choke it down

Annon 3 again can you actually site a source that shows it being 50 50?

Are you saying you have Stefanson saying that the stuff is 50 50 in NBBA? and if so based on what?

We have already seen 2 examples of him not getting data correct and later having to write a correction for it after the fact when folk like CW have jumped on the info as gospel for ZC from his earlier writing.

First there is his calling fish meat and misleading folk into believing the inuits didn’t eat fish

Then yrs after the study he corrects the calcium issue from the Bellevue study in his later article by saying that he and his fellow study subject took the bones with them and knawed on them as they took their evening walks without reporting haven eatten then to the study supervisors for inclusion in the food analysis

the plains indian recipe from their historical site isn’t 50 50. it has berries mixed into it giving it vitamins and minerals present in those berries along with some carbs. Since very few fur traders made their own foods but traded for it they wouldn’t know what is in it neither.

it is interesting that Stefansson wrote
in 1935 that the definition of meat for the Bellevue study “The experiment started smoothly with Andersen, who was permitted to eat in such quantity as he liked such things as he liked, provided only that they came under our definition of meat – steaks, chops, brains fried in bacon fat, boiled short-ribs, chicken, fish, liver and bacon.” Adventures in Diet
Part 2

By Vilhjalmur Stefansson
Harper’s Monthly Magazine, December 1935.

Clearly not a beef,beef fat and water diet as it has been corrupted to by CW

Comment by Stargazey on February 14, 2010 @ 7:27 pm

(The Inuit ate berries and other plants that would cause them not to fit CW’s definition of ZC.)

****
Under which ZC plan would berries fit?

I believe I said that science doesn’t do “proof.”

****
Which means if your argument is that zc is dangerous and leads to deficiency, we cannot “prove” it is safe other than to say so and so has done zc for this length of time and either does not have those deficiencies or display symptoms of those deficiencies. The naysayers have yet to offer studies disproving zc.

@ Daveo:

Just spent a bit of time wandering through the threads over there trying to figure out where I got the impression that ZIOH-ZC is anti-supplement. Here are just a few snippets:

A journal conversation:

A forum member, who joined ZIOH on 10/23/2009, was taking iron and Vitamin D supplements as prescribed by her doctor due to diagnosed anemia and Vitamin D deficiency.

Charles’ post to her (#23 dtd 10/29/2009)

“…The protein shakes and all these pills is troublesome, but you’re on the way to eliminating them so we’ll give you a pass on that.”

Her response to Charles (Post #25):

“I take the Vitamin D and also Iron supplements because I was diagnosed with Anemia and low in Vitamin D. I have a follow-up appointment in 3 months and I really want my my bloodwork to be good, my doctor is really pushing a colonoscopy if my blood count doesn’t get up to at least an 11 or 12 (I was diagnosed @ 8, went in for a follow-up appointment a month later and it had only went up a point to 9). He thinks I may be bleeding internally–when he told me that it kinda scared me.

The shake (I have one a day)-will be history asap, I promise!!”

Charles responds in post #26:

“Okay, we’ll be watching. You seem to be progressing pretty well though.”

Catin (a Moderator) weighs in, Post #47:

“Why are you still taking an iron supplement? Just eat the beef and go lie down if you’re feeling tired.

I’d love to get my anemic mother to go ZC and eat beef instead of hearing about how she needs her iron supps and is always tired.”

Her response to Catin, Post #48
“…I am on prescribed Iron as my levels were very blood count was very low (8) and my Vitamin D was low also. The doctor would like to see me at and 11 or 12 blood count and I was prescribed to take 500 mg of Vitamin D 2x a day to get those levels back up. I have to schedule a follow up in 3 months.”

Charles’ response, Post #49
“Personally, I think all those levels will come up on their own by just eating meat for three months, but that’s my opinion.”

I skimmed through the journal (all 35 pages) and I did not see where she ever again mentioned her supplements or a follow up doctor’s appointment. Surely she would have mentioned it had she given up the supps. She did struggle for several months with diarrhea and was encouraged to change her meat, up her fat, lower her fat, you get the picture.

Her last journal post was dated 12/11/2009.

In a thread on Vitamin C:

A forum member posted research indicating Vitamin C hinders athletic performance.

From Charles, post 33 dtd 4/11/2009:
“…I don’t take any of these anti-oxidants and do just fine. As we like to say around here, stop consuming that which oxidizes and there is no need for the anti-oxidant.”

Forum member’s post #20
“I weighed 295 lbs in 2005. After starting vitamin C supplementation I was able to lose weight – then after going low carb I lost even more down to 180 thus far. This past week has been a test to see how well I could do without vitamin C. I can say I feel better with vitamin C on a zero carb regimen than without vitamin C on zero carb.”

Charles’ response, post #21:
“I don’t see how you can conclude this over an entire week. Really, (forum member’s name), a week? Come on, you’re better than this….”

In a thread on Omega 3 intake:
Charles:
“I eat exclusively grain-finished and I take no supplements. I put my health up against anyone. Real vitamin A & D? Really? Please.”

In a thread on osteoporosis, post #10:
Catin (a Moderator):
“The Inuit had really strong bones and teeth. Just keep eating ZC and you should be fine. If you’re super worried you could get a bone scan in five or ten years, up to you!”

From the FAQ section on vitamins:

Charles’ response to a now unregistered member who took many vitamins as prescribed by her doctor:

“I’m not sure, but I can’t imagine that supplements can provide you better nutrition than real food. If you can’t absorb if from real food, why on earth would be able to absorb these nutrients from synthetic pills? That makes absolutely no sense to me. All you can do is try to remove them and eat pure ZC for a couple of months and go get checked again. See where you all in. In my mind, if you can’t absorb them, you can’t absorb them, no matter what form they are in.”

Another response from Charles to a now un-registered member who wondered about deficiencies and vitamin supplementation:
“If you have bad hair and skin on ZC, then you are simply not eating enough fat. Bottom line.”

There are many others, but there’s not enough time in the day. I will concede your point that I did not find any direct prohibition on supplementation but perhaps you will concede mine that the tone set by the forum owner is decidedly anti-supplement.

Of note, there were MANY unregistered members in those threads. With regard to JD’s point about nobody complaining of a folate (or any) deficiency, we can’t query all those who left as to their reasons for leaving. I do not buy the standard ZIOH line that the departed did so because they were addicted to carbs.

Comment by Anon on February 14, 2010 @ 6:57 pm
I guess the question is, why wouldn’t ZIOH advocate/encourage (or even demand) the tests be done? It’s the right thing to do for the forum members and it strengthens the forum position on supplements not being necessary.

****
Agreed that there is nothing wrong with testing and kind of wished I would have had mine done before and after low carb and before and after zc. Too late now except to do the after.

I would say the reason zioh does not demand the testing is the same reason Marisol, JM, Satya, and anyone else who has a site does not. Would you get tested just to be able to post here or join anywhere? Would you pay for the tests you are demanding people take to join your site?

Daveo good to see that ZIOH has changed its posistion on what can be included.
were any reasons given for the changes?
some newly discovered science to indicate that nutrtiants in those foods were needed?
or just CW once more changing his position?

How do y’all justify saying CW is 2 yrs ZC when he himself posted on Jimmie Moore’s site back before the beef fat and water for preggo folk debate about eating a desert his wife made him that was low carb bit not no carb? And then posting that being ZC was based on how one ate the majority of the time? that would allow somebody who had a higher carb meal with their mother once a week to be a ZC person by CW’s definition in 2008

Blood calcium will not tell you if the diet is deficient unless the test is run before the body makes corrections for that issue and begins to remove Ca from the bones to restore that level.

by Joe #2: “I would say the reason zioh does not demand the testing is the same reason Marisol, JM, Satya, and anyone else who has a site does not. Would you get tested just to be able to post here or join anywhere? Would you pay for the tests you are demanding people take to join your site?”

Apples and oranges (or meat and vegetables, ha ha).

ZIOH is the site that discourages supplementation and vegetation. There is no other site, that I’m aware of, taking such a restrictive stance on diet.

CW has been pruning membership for several months and putting in place a thorough screening process by which membership is approved only for those VERY serious about ZCing the ZIOH way. Why not implement one additional step that would prove the earnestness of potential members?

It also would be a good way to monetize the site. He could affiliate with an online lab service, recommend the online service to applicants, and get a few bucks for each member who uses that service. Two birds with one stone: lab tests to post and prove the naysayers wrong, and income too.

Btw, it’s not too late to set a baseline for yourself. Get tested now and then re-test in six months, or whenever.

Anon – I definitely concede that Charles himself is against supplementation, no question. My point was that they are tolerated there. I take some supplements and I have ever been threatened with banning. That’s all I was trying to get across, to go along with the next answer..

2BIG – The position hasn’t changed. Though Charles himself is meat/water and doesn’t believe anything else is necessary, but those items have always been considered ZC there and perfectly acceptable for people to eat as part of a ZC diet – with the understanding that not everyone can handle all those food items and if ZC isn’t working for you, you may have to eliminate some or all of them. Personally, for me, I’ve had eliminate just about everything and get down to meat/water to feel good and not have cravings.

@2BIG. ZIOH has not changed its ZC position from day one. Bear ZC has always been ZIOH or ZIOH ZC has always been Bear ZC. It is just CW who personally eats only muscle meat and water. NOTHING has changed.

@2BIG. Look at the FAQ forum article titled ‘What is zero carb’. It is dated 10-28-08. The Bear lays out what is zero carb and ZIOH adheres to that definition.

Comment by Anon on February 14, 2010 @ 6:57 pm
I’m not talking about lipid panels. I’m talking about micronutrient tests.

****
If I run across any will post link

No, I’m not suggesting ZIOH-ZCers are destined for a battle with cancer. I’m making a point that feeling/looking/performing great does not “perfect health” measure.

****
Dr Barry Groves argues against routine testing here:
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/screens1.html

With regard to LCers, the reason they don’t get as much flack is they are consuming the very vegetables and fruits that are purported to provide nutrients ZCers might not be getting sans supplementation.

****
There is also the argument that just because the nutrients are in the veggies does not mean that the body absorbs them which on the other hand can be made for those in meat.

@2BIG. maybe not the best source but: “Traditionally pemmican was prepared from the lean meat of large game such as buffalo, elk or deer. The meat was cut in thin slices and dried over a slow fire, or in the hot sun until it was hard and brittle. Then it was pounded into very small pieces, almost powder-like in consistency, using stones. The pounded meat was mixed with melted fat with a ratio of approximately 50% pounded meat and 50% melted fat. In some cases, dried fruits such as saskatoon berries, cranberries, blueberries, or choke cherries were pounded into powder and then added to the meat/fat mixture. The resulting mixture was then packed into rawhide pouches for storage.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican

Comment by 2BIG on February 14, 2010 @ 9:50 pm
Daveo good to see that ZIOH has changed its posistion on what can be included.
were any reasons given for the changes?

AFAIK the policy has never been only beef and water. As Daveo that has been suggested when people have complained of ZC not working for various reasons. Many people were tolerated at zioh when it started who were not zc, but when they kept insisting on convincing CW and others that their way was better that is when he began pointing out the z stood for zero.
Have been reading about ZC since hearing about CW on JM’s site and only remember CW eating meat and this would have been somewhere around spring or summer ‘08. He openly claims that he lost most of his weight on lc but feels adding the carbs back leads to falling off the wagon so to speak.

Comment by Anon on February 14, 2010 @ 9:41 pm
Just spent a bit of time wandering through the threads over there trying to figure out where I got the impression that ZIOH-ZC is anti-supplement.

****
Daveo responded to Anti_ZIOH_Cult saying that “ZIOH’s version (unseasoned meat/water/no supplementation/no testing/no discussion” was not true. Sure he has told people that he does not take them or believe others need them. Again they are grown ups who decide for themselves. So if Daveo wants to supplement he does so and is not kicked out contrary to the popular belief here.

I do not buy the standard ZIOH line that the departed did so because they were addicted to carbs.

****
Nor would I, but the vast majority did have carbs in their diet, whether by addiction or choice, therefore making them no longer zc.

Yeah, I started ZC in August 08, and posted on the thread on JM’s website, and at the time Charles was already ZC for a while. 2+ years sounds about right.

by Daveo: “Anon – I definitely concede that Charles himself is against supplementation, no question. My point was that they are tolerated there. I take some supplements and I have ever been threatened with banning.”

I wonder what would happen if you discussed your supplementation in a journal. If you posted about the benefits you expect from taking the supplements and the deficiency you are guarding against by taking the supplements, etc.

Based on the response to others, as referenced in the clips I pulled, I suspect the reception would not be so warm.

Sure, if you keep it to yourself or mention it in passing, it’s fine. But if you wanted to discuss at length in your journal the reasons why you supplement…. Well, that might be a game changer.

Comment by Anon on February 14, 2010 @ 10:07 pm
ZIOH is the site that discourages supplementation and vegetation. There is no other site, that I’m aware of, taking such a restrictive stance on diet.

****
ZIOH could be the only one but there are a few on dc that claim to be pure zc so why would Satya not want to protect them? Where is the proof that dc is more healthy than zc? Are those sites recommending or allowing supplementation to be held responsible if someone takes too much of a certain supplement? Dr. Gott points out the potential dangers of supplementing here: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=110&dat=20010814&id=2KQNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-k8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4965,5075031

You now have a site that says 5 months is the time limit for displaying folic deficiences. Not aware of anyone at ZIOH complaining of these symptoms.

Trying again. If you have any women at ZIOH who are not eating plants, are not taking folate and are not eating liver, it is inadvisable for them to get pregnant.

Folate deficiency in the first trimester is associated with cleft palate, spina bifida and anencephaly. The third one, especially, is not a trivial condition.

“…The protein shakes and all these pills is troublesome, but you’re on the way to eliminating them so we’ll give you a pass on that.”

Catin (a Moderator) weighs in, Post #47:

“Why are you still taking an iron supplement? Just eat the beef and go lie down if you’re feeling tired. ”

These 2 statements are what I find most dangerous and absurd about that place. The poster is talking about a PRESCRIPTION pill and an unemployed paralegal (and whatever Catin is) think they are somehow more qualified to prescribe to her medical needs. (I’ve actually seen Charles make the statement “I wouldn’t prescribe ___ for you” in response to people). They do this over and over and over there.

Hi Everyone,

I discovered this blog after Googling various keywords a while ago, because I’m really upset right now. I’ve read most of the comments on here and do realise that the recent blog entries were in reference to “ZIOH”. I was never a member (although I had a good look) so I don’t have much to add, but I did see a lot of ZIOH-bashing at DCF and I got a feel of what’s happening on ZIOH, but I have no strong opinion because of lack of experience there. When I read the comments on this blog, I saw some references to the Dirty Carnivore forum (hence Google directing me to this blog), of which I am now an ex-member.

When I joined the Dirty Carnivore Forum, I knew no one on there, but it soon became apparent that most members on there were either ex-ZIOH members or are members of both/several WOE boards.

My first few days on DCF (Dirty Carnivore Forum) were very pleasant and I was well on my way to making friends on there. Then I had a horrible experience.

One lady made a seemingly innocent post to which she got some very heavy-handed replies from 2 mods and another lady. I was truly confused and posted about my confusion. Then the same lady posted about her “Orthorexia” and that she had no problem with having an ED. I considered her to be one of the friends I wanted to have because we had so much in common and in general she appeared to be a very kind, sincere and loving person. I posted a very polite and respectful reply to the post wherein she admitted to be an ED sufferer. I also said that I don’t think having an ED is healthy. Simply my opinion, but I never attacked her character. After all, I wanted to be her friend and I still want to be her friend.

About 1 minute after I posted my reply, I saw that my post got deleted and in its place was a warning from “DCFadmin” about posting rules etc. I also then received a PM from a mod called “The Beast”. The PM was titled “Bad post warning”. Now I was even more confused. So I gave this a lot of thought and decided that DCF was not the right place for me. I don’t like drama and I don’t like being treated like a child, especially when I act like an adult and only make polite and respectful posts.

I then went to my profile and hit the “Delete Account” link. I got a warning saying that the mods first have to agree that I’m allowed to delete my account (??). A few hours ago I went back there to see if they have allowed me to delete my account. Then I got a shock. A message popped up and said I’m “banned” from that forum for being a “troll / preditor” (their spelling)! I was never banned. I just wanted to delete my account. And now I’m a troll? Surely if I was a “troll / preditor” I would have stayed to do whatever trolls or “preditors” do?

In any case, I presume with regards to WOE, one site is not much different from another site, so I have no intention of joining another WOE site.

Having said all of the above, I would really like to stay in touch with the people I became to love on DCF. If any of them reads here, and wants to stay in touch, please email me at ilke.schultz@iafrica.com.

Kind Regards
Ilke

My apologies, but I forgot to add something.

While all this drama was going on, another mod, Martin (Bearslayer), made a direct post to me in another thread, basically saying I was undereating. So it does feel as if an unknown newbie is considered to be a “troll / preditor” for quite some time until they are either “accepted” or “banned”. Really sad

Ilke

Ilke, I hope it was a misunderstanding.

Satya, are you around to clarify?

Seems that supplementation is a holy grail where suggesting it may not be prudent causes people angst. Even the NIH cannot find the proof to recommend it. So being against it or cautious about it seems reasonable IMO.

Now if a doctor prescribes supplementation then no one except the person taking the supplementation should be asking the doctor about the advisability of taking a supplement. Others may question it if say one is eating a lot of red meat and the doctor has prescribed iron as appearing contradictory but to outright say don’t take it is wrong. That is IF that was what was being said. There is no link to post #47 to see the entire context of the thread so I will withhold judgement.

Comment by Anon on February 14, 2010 @ 10:07 pm

It also would be a good way to monetize the site. He could affiliate with an online lab service, recommend the online service to applicants, and get a few bucks for each member who uses that service. Two birds with one stone: lab tests to post and prove the naysayers wrong, and income too.

****
Pretty sure CW has said he wants no advertisements or incomes for such things as above to avoid being accused of being in it for monetary gain like many have said of JM.

Does anyone here use online labs that they can vouch for?

Joe#2.”Does anyone here use online labs that they can vouch for?”

http://www.healthcheckusa.com/ I have used them previously. You don’t even need a doctor. They will have their own doctor authorize the test. They have other organizations do the blood draw and then send you the results. Google ‘HealthCheckusa’ as there are some % off coupons on the internet for them. I used them for a thyroid test and Dr. Mirkins panel.

Comment by Ilke on February 15, 2010 @ 8:49 am
While all this drama was going on, another mod, Martin (Bearslayer), made a direct post to me in another thread, basically saying I was undereating. So it does feel as if an unknown newbie is considered to be a “troll / preditor” for quite some time until they are either “accepted” or “banned”. Really sad
Ilke

****
In the “Why do you think YOU gained weight on ZC/VLC?” thread you show up still as a full member but non-members cannot get info by clicking on your avatar.
http://forum.dirtycarnivore.com/index.php?topic=150.45

Thanks JD.

Seems that supplementation is a holy grail where suggesting it may not be prudent causes people angst. Even the NIH cannot find the proof to recommend it.

That’s not exactly true. Please note these statements from the study you linked:

“Within some studies or subgroups of the study populations, there is encouraging evidence of health benefits, such as increased bone mineral density and decreased fractures in postmenopausal women who use calcium and vitamin D supplements.”

“Multiple studies have shown the effectiveness of folic
acid use by women of childbearing age to prevent neural
12 tube defects in offspring.”

“Four trials tested vitamin E. One large study of healthy women, the Women’s Health Study (WHS), recorded
decreased cardiovascular deaths, although there was no
effect on incidence of CVD events (10). Another trial found a decreased risk for prostate cancer (and a suggestion of decreased colorectal cancer risk) in male smokers, as well as a decreased risk for angina and thrombotic stroke”

I think most would agree that it is best to get your nutrition from food, but if you think that your food sources may not supply what’s necessary, what is wrong with supplementing? I just don’t get why CW seems to take it as a personal insult when someone does not buy the idea that a muscle-meat-only-diet provides everything we need.

Mariasol: “I just don’t get why CW seems to take it as a personal insult when someone does not buy the idea that a muscle-meat-only-diet provides everything we need.”

I am not here to defend CW just bad assumptions/remarks not based in fact. I have read too many articles where supplementation just does not do what it is supposed to do. Yes, get your nutrition from food. I think using supplements are sometimes just a poor excuse for not eating healthy and thinking the supplements fix all that.

The problem with supplementation is everyone always thinks MORE is better. MORE isn’t better and can be dangerous in some cases. And these days I don’t trust the multis. Too much of this stuff comes from China and lord only knows what is in it. Too many times vitamin/mineral supplements just make for expensive urine IMO. Now if a doctor prescribed some supplements I would probably take them.

@Stargazy. Operative word is risk in that last citation. Risk equals correlation not cause. Not female so I have no comments on the first two. The NIH said they cannot recommend MMVs.

JD–I’ll give you the last one, as I’m also aware that correlation does not equal causation.

But on the risk of osteoporosis in females and neural tube defects in babies (cleft palate, spina bifida and anencephaly in babies), ZIOH and even ZC in general might want to be careful. I can’t imagine what a ZIOH-er might do if she finds that she has given birth to a baby without a brain. A website disclaimer might not be sufficient protection in that case.

Doesn’t it make sense to minimize risk, though? If there is sufficient data that shows a correlation between nutritional deficiencies and birth defects, for example, wouldn’t it make sense to work at getting nutrients that will minimize the risk even if a direct cause relationship has not been established? It’s not like you’re out anything for trying to keep your bases covered.

In evaluating risk, you have to consider both the likelihood and the impact. If something is very likely to happen but has no significant impact, the risk would be worth taking. If something is not quite as likely to happen but the impact is devastating, the risk is less worth taking.

I apologize. I just realized that I was being a drama queen again.

I was thinking of the days when my husband had to take care of anencephalic babies in the newborn nursery at the hospital. These days, the ultrasound would show that the baby had no brain and it could just be aborted.

http://www.anencephalie-info.org/e/faq.php

@Stargazey. I don’t think you are being a drama queen in this case.

You can get folate from beef liver and eggs. Beef liver is ZC and a good source of folate. Eggs are ZC. http://dietary-supplements.info.nih.gov/factsheets/folate.asp Chicken liver is also good: http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5553.html

Isn’t one of the concerns about pregnant woman that when they don’t go to the doctor early they don’t get the advice to supplement? So this is a concern for women in general. Not just those who are ZC.

..test..

You’re not a drama queen, Stargazey. Aborting an anencephalic baby may be easier than bringing one to term, depending on your beliefs about abortion, but it would still be an awful experience that could very possibly have been avoided.

Regarding Calcium. http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/does-meat-really-leach-calcium-from-the-bones.html.html

“On the other hand there are at least four studies showing that people who eat the most protein have the slowest bone loss over time and another four showing that people who eat the most protein have the lowest fracture rate over time.”

And who would eat a lot of protein? Someone who is ZC.

JD, your previous comment ended up in my spam box. More than one link will do that and I guess the double “html” was seen as two links.

“Most protein” is not the same as “protein and fat only”

“First, if you are a pregnant woman, be careful of too much sun exposure. If you do get a fair amount of sun exposure, make sure you take plenty of folic acid.”

So folate deficiency can be caused by too much sun as well as dietary deficiency.

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/uncategorized/folate-and-fun-in-the-sun/

“Forth, eat plenty of protein so that you will make enough albumin. This albumin will protect your folate from the ravages of the sunshine that you bask in to increase your vitamin D.”

So another positive for high protein intake.

“A recent British Medical Journal article describes the type of folic acid commonly used:

The form of folate in supplements and in fortified foods is pteroylmonoglutamate (PGA), a form that does not occur in nature. It is both cheap and stable unlike most native forms of the vitamin. The body metabolises PGA into methylfolate, the normal form of the vitamin transported in plasma. However, research shows that this absorption and biotransformation process is saturated at doses in the region of 400 µg PGA or less. ”

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/supplements/folic-acid-supplementation/

One example of why it is better to get your vitamins and minerals from food and not supplements.

“On the other hand there are at least four studies showing that people who eat the most protein have the slowest bone loss over time and another four showing that people who eat the most protein have the lowest fracture rate over time.”

And who would eat a lot of protein? Someone who is ZC.

High protein may slow bone loss, but not necessarily in the absence of consuming any calcium at all.

Regarding getting folic acid from beef liver and eggs, that is not the diet ZIOH is recommending as nutritionally complete and safe. Remember, the whole premise that started that site was around beef, beef fat, and water only.

OhYeahBabe. “High protein may slow bone loss, but not necessarily in the absence of consuming any calcium at all.

Regarding getting folic acid from beef liver and eggs, that is not the diet ZIOH is recommending as nutritionally complete and safe. Remember, the whole premise that started that site was around beef, beef fat, and water only.’

It may not be the diet that CW is promoting and I am not going to defend him. But for someone who follows “Bear” ZC which as pointed out previously is ZIOH ZC then ZIOH ZC is a sufficient diet. I already posted that Bear ZC has been the definition at ZIOH since its inception.

Eggs, cheese, cream all contain calcium AFAIK. Thus there is calcium in a ZC diet if you consume those foods. They are part of ZIOH ZC.

JD, you’re losing me. How can you say ZIOH ZC = Bear ZC if CW promotes & teaches something different? ZIOH ZC = CW ZC. CW has been known to tolerate eggs, but is definitely against cheese & cream. Plus eggs and cream hardly contain any calcium at all, at least not in typical portion sizes. If a person were to eat enough cheese to get a decent shot of calcium, the carbs would really start to add up.

I understand that ZC has different definitions in different places. I can see that if a person were to consume organ meats, blood, bones, large servings of cream, eggs and some cheese they might get some of the nutrients missing from an all meat diet – but THAT isn’t the diet CW is telling people to follow as nutritionally complete.

CW = meat, fat and water

I don’t see any of those other foods in his list. See what I mean?

Thank you so much to those of you who have responded to my comments regarding the DC Forum. I’m now even more confused as one of you said I still show as an active member?!

I requested that my account be deleted and got a message saying that all the mods first need to approve my request. Seems it never got approved and instead I got “banned”.

May I please ask a favour? Could anyone of you please check if I still show as an active member, or whether I now appear as an unregistered member? Also, could you please look if it shows “banned” underneath my name?

I’m sorry to bother you with all of this, but I’m really upset about the abusive treatment I got at the DC Forum.

Thanking you kindly.

Regards
Ilke

Comment by OhYeahBabe on February 15, 2010 @ 3:57 pm
Regarding getting folic acid from beef liver and eggs, that is not the diet ZIOH is recommending as nutritionally complete and safe. Remember, the whole premise that started that site was around beef, beef fat, and water only.

****
Another false statement. As JD, Daveo, and others have pointed out zioh is not as restrictive as you keep claiming. As a matter of fact it is well documented there that even CW ate eggs and cheese but gave them up for various reasons. Pretty sure that the 10-28-08 date referenced here is somewhere close to when they started.

Comment by OhYeahBabe on February 15, 2010 @ 5:19 pm
ZIOH ZC = CW ZC. CW has been known to tolerate eggs, but is definitely against cheese & cream.

****
Another false statement times two! He does not force people to eat what he eats. That is documented on his site and Daveo told he eats differently than CW and is a member of his site. We understand you disagree with him, but that is no reason for you to keep claiming falsehoods.

Just to stay more on topic (I find the discussion here very interesting), I’ve been a dirty carnivore for almost 10 years now (9 years and 11 months to be exact). I’m dirty in the sense that I occasionally eat a tiny amount of baby greens, but on most days I’m pure ZC.

So I’ve got almost a decade of this WOE under my belt, so to speak. I do supplement on advice from my doctor because after about 5 years of this WOE, my bi-annualy blood and bone density tests were not very positive. However, taking supplements have rectified all of the issues. I’ve also been taking Magnesium and K from about the 2nd month into my WOE as I was experiencing severe muscle cramping at the time.

Regards
Ilke

CW in the Vit D thread in October last year:

“Our conception of a zero-carb diet does NOT come from the Bear or the Inuit, as is commonly believed. Our conception comes from the native Americans of the Plains and the fur trade. Their diet was primarily buffalo and pemmican was the “bread of the wilderness”. We find clues from the Northernmost Inuit, the Dogrib, and the Forest Indian of Canada and Coronation Gulf, and we also find clues from the Bear, the Argentine Gaucho and many others, but pemmican provides the framework. Meat and Water, as you see in the logo.

We don’t need to concern ourselves with “sources” of vitamins because that whole hypothesis is backwards. Meat and water is the primary diet for humans so whatever is there is necessary. Whatever is scarce or not available from such a diet is therefore not necessary.”

@OhYeahBabe. “CW = meat, fat and water”.

Been through all this couple of posts earlier. Daveo, Joe#2, and I all answered. Not going there again.

Mariasol quoting CW: “We don’t need to concern ourselves with “sources” of vitamins because that whole hypothesis is backwards. Meat and water is the primary diet for humans so whatever is there is necessary. Whatever is scarce or not available from such a diet is therefore not necessary.”

Back to where we started AGAIN – prove that meat and water causes vitamin/mineral deficiencees.

I found a citation that folate deficiency should rear its head in 5 months. No one from what I am able to read on that forum has the symptoms of folate deficiency who only eats meat and water after five months. Conclusions to be drawn: 1) They are lying about what they eat, 2) They are not telling us they have symptoms, 3) they are supplementing, or 4) the whole vitamin deficiency on meat and water with respect to folate is a big red herring.

Until I did some research, I didn’t know that high protein intake protects against folate loss as does not getting too much sun. So one has to leave open the possibility that muscle meat and water is sufficient to prevent folate deficiency. There are plenty of people eating only muscle meat and water not reporting symptoms of folate deficiency.

So if muscle meat and water is sufficient to prevent folate deficiency MAY it also not be possible that muscle meat and water only does not cause deficiency diseases?

JD, my comment was really meant to address the other part of the quote: “Our conception of a zero-carb diet does NOT come from the Bear………pemmican provides the framework. Meat and Water, as you see in the logo.”

ZIOH ZC is not The Bear ZC. It’s CW ZC. I know that Bear items are technically allowed but they are discouraged.

by JD: “No one from what I am able to read on that forum has the symptoms of folate deficiency who only eats meat and water after five months.”

Unfortunately we can’t query the 800+ people who are no longer members of ZIOH thus our respective positions are found lacking.

JD, where did you find that high protein intake ***in the absence of all sources of folate*** (your words – muscle meat only) is protective enough?

You wonder where we get the muscle meat & water thing, when it’s what we read all over ZIOH and right there in your own post.

Comment by mariasol on February 15, 2010 @ 6:23 pm
CW in the Vit D thread in October last year:

****
The argument is CW’s version = zioh and your above post tells us about CW’s. Surely you saw “We have basically adopted the ZC acceptable foods from “The Bear”. The list of acceptable foods is listed in this forum.” This was posted by a moderator in Willeke’s journal which I would say you have read since you commented on her journal in the posts above. So why would you take something and try to make it prove your point and ignore something that obviously shows your point is wrong? The journal is still open along with the faq posts explaining the diet.

Comment by mariasol on February 15, 2010 @ 7:31 pm
ZIOH ZC is not The Bear ZC. It’s CW ZC. I know that Bear items are technically allowed but they are discouraged.

****
False again see my last post above.

Anon. “Unfortunately we can’t query the 800+ people who are no longer members of ZIOH thus our respective positions are found lacking.”

I don’t care about the 800+ members who are no longer part of of ZIOH. Every critic here keeps harping about CW’s position that only muscle meat and water is sufficient. I gave you the ammunition to hang him by his petard. I had to find the ammunition. Not one of these critics has done so. All it takes is a little googling folks. Not that hard to do. There are plenty of people on that forum eating only muscle meat and water only. None to the best of my knowledge is suffering the symptoms of folate deficiency. There isn’t much of any folate in muscle meat AFAIK. CW and others like him ought to be suffering the symptoms. Just like with the Stefannson critics who were SURE he was going to get scurvy in 3 weeks, IT AIN’T HAPPENED FOLKS.

I love to question conventional wisdom. Unless you got proof to the contrary you have to allow for the POSSIBILITY that muscle meat and water only does not lead to deficiency diseases.

OhYeahBabe. “You wonder where we get the muscle meat & water thing, when it’s what we read all over ZIOH and right there in your own post.”

Yes because everyone here keeps harping on it. It is NOT the definition of ZC. It is CW’s version of it yet no one can prove it wrong.

So are we at the plan -vs- plan-behind-the-plan now?

What CW ZC may say is one thing, but if you read what Charles ACTUALLY advises over and over and over, you can see that what CW expects and what people learn. They’re going to do what they are taught to do, not what they read when they signed up.

I just want to state that I came here only to disavow strongly my statement about the bikini picture. Health is not only on the outside. I was thin on SAD and thin on vegetarian, and inside I know I was damaged. So I apologize for that.

I do not apologize for believing that the way I am eating now has helped me enormously, MENTALLY and PHYSICALLY, and I’m grateful everyday for finding ZC.

Mariasol, I have a STRONG respect for the work you do, and will continue to read your blog for your insights.

Thank you,
Katelyn

**I don’t care about the 800+ members who are no longer part of of ZIOH.
**There are plenty of people on that forum eating only muscle meat and water only. None to the best of my knowledge is suffering the symptoms of folate deficiency…IT AIN’T HAPPENED FOLKS.

#2. How do you know that the current members aren’t keeping troublesome symptoms to themselves? How do you know that they aren’t keeping quiet about non-ZIOH-approved methods they might be using to counteract the symptoms? From what I’ve seen, there is a powerful motivation for members to lie about what they are and aren’t doing.

Mariasol, it looks like your blog has done some good.

A ZIOH member is taking (temporary) leave of that forum to explore VLC because she hasn’t had any success with the scales. From her post at DC, she states: “I’m also considering adding back exercise, which is not ZIOH.”

Instead of the parting shot typically favored by CW, this is his response:

“Just please let me know either way. We won’t think any less of you for deciding against our way of life. I have the greatest respect for all who try ZC our way. However, it’s very important to me to keep our environment the way it is.”

JD, possibility doesn’t equal probability any more than correlation equals cause.

@Stargazey & OhYeahBabe. Please give me some concrete examples instead of this mindless speculation and rationalization. Y’all can’t stand CW. I get it. I really get it. I don’t give one whit what Charles does with his forum. His forum is going to live or die on how many people can ZC to his standards. Been there, done that, said that.

Give me some real life concrete examples of people with vitamin/mineral deficiencies on muscle fed meat and water. No more speculation. The historical record supports his position IMO. I gave you solid concrete reasons why someone should have a folate deficiency after 5 months. It hasn’t happened. There are plenty of others around like Lex who only eat meat and water. You have given nothing but endless speculation and innuendo and why you don’t like CW. The only way you are going to discredit him is with proof. With solid historical or scientific arguments.

Give us some historical accounts of vitamin/mineral deficiences eating only muscle meat and water. Give us some science.

Ilke, I’m very sorry to hear about your bad treatment at Satya’s forum. I’m one of the people who recommended ZIOH members to go to DCF instead, to avoid abuse behavior and other things.

I’m a bit perplexed now, but maybe the DCF people are a bit paranoid because of things that have happened in the past? I’m not stating this as fact, I’m just speculating. Still, I don’t condone that type of treatment. You were an unknown newbie, so how could you have known about past mishaps?

Have you spoken to TPTB at DCF about this?

I’ve followed the DC forum since day one, and I saw your posts, and your tone, and your attempt to make friends and you NEVER occured to me as a possible troll!

I do wish you can get this matter solved. Please contact Satya. She’s a very nice person and I’m sure she will sort this out.

“..test..” ~ JD

Testing what? One person posting as two?

Suzanne, now that was really a stupid question. Where do YOU think the emails and screen shots are? Lost in space? They are on my hard drive, obviously! Soon to be on the www.

Comment by Anon on February 15, 2010 @ 10:28 pm
Mariasol, it looks like your blog has done some good.

What has it changed at zioh? (not saying that her blog has done no good) You are trying to make the post say something it does not. There has been no parting shot because no one departed. Read the post again. She is questioning many aspects of what to do and if doing ZC differently than zioh would mean she then could not be at zioh. To which cw gave the answer you quoted.

Comment by OhYeahBabe on February 15, 2010 @ 10:45 pm
JD, possibility doesn’t equal probability any more than correlation equals cause.

****
This would apply to nutrient deficiency on zc diet too.

Comment by Stargazey on February 15, 2010 @ 10:16 pm
#1. If any of those 800 were suffering folate deficiency and complained abo